Power steering help ASAP!!

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camcore
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Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby camcore » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:22 pm

Hey, a few days ago I blew the lines on my power steering pump, im not quite sure which line but both are a pain to get to and call for 2 hours each in an established shop and $500 or so. being a college student I don't have the money to pay someone to do it, and with it so cold im not gonna bother with putting in new lines, so I was wondering if anyone has done a belt bypass of the power steering pump pulley. if anyone has I would greatly appreciate a little info on what you did.
1. how long did it take?
2. what size belt did you use?
3. how did you route it?

this is the 3.1 litre engine in a 92 gt. a quick response would be greatly appreciated as I am driving home for the autorama this weekend.
Thanks in advance - cam


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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby ifixalot » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:38 pm

I don't have my 90 or 92 anymore. But I wonder if you just couldn't connect a piece of hose from the high pressure side to the low and the pump will just circulate fluid with little or no pressure. Maybe cut the tube on the high side and clamp some hose to it over to the low side.
On my 96, the high pressure side is what blew and it wasn't all that bad to replace.
I also had the end cap come off my rack housing unit so are you even sure it's the hose?
Good luck.



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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby Chad91GTZ » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:38 pm

It seems you've already decided what to do, but here's a bit of advice.

It's going to take longer to do what you want to do than to just fix it. These are the responsibilities of vehicles ownership. And driving in the winter/spring with no power steering is dangerous. Not just to you, but to everyone else on the road. Including members of my family.

So, proceed with that knowledge, and good luck.


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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby Rettax3 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:47 am

:unknown: Some serious opinions here... I did a bypass, just like jskiguy suggested, when I dropped a 3100 into my old Fiero (RIP). Fieros were NOT designed to have power steering, BTW...

I have multiple cars without power steering, including a couple that WERE designed to have it. If you get used to the car's handling without power assist, it is fine. When the car is in motion above a few MPH, you can hardly even tell the difference -it is parking-lot maneuverability that suffers most from lack of power-assist, and the Berettas are simply not that heavy of a vehicle to really need it. I don't see how that endangers people's lives, but that is just my serious opinion. :pardon:

That said, it is a PITA to replace the P/S line, but once it is done, it is done. Order one from Rock Auto, and keep a couple of big wrenches handy to tweak the line a few degrees -it is an afternoon well spent. Just put a space-heater or two under the car with you. :good:


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Postby Chad91GTZ » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:10 pm

So because you've been lucky to not have a power assist rack fail due to not having proper pressure and fluid, it can't happen?

I have to say that's some funky logic.

Just because you've done it doesn't make it a good idea.



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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:30 am

Why would the rack fail because of lack of power assist??? %) The same amount of force is required to turn the pinion-gear to push the rack from side-to-side whether there is power assist or not, and the input shaft from the steering-column is the same size and type as used on the non-power rack from a Fiero, and if the rack would break from the force required to turn the car (even at a dead-stop), then it would break by just twisting the steering wheel really hard. :no: I don't think these cars would have passed DOT inspections in that case. Sorry, but THAT is the logic I believe in, and it doesn't seem so funky to me. It seems, um, logical.

Now, I assumed you meant that he could loose control due to lack of power assist, especially on bad roads, since you made such a point about it being especially dangerous due to the winter/spring time. But, if you think power-steering racks fail more often in the winter-time because they don't have the extra force of hydraulic-fluid pumping through them, then... :good: Have fun with that view-point. I'm ready to drop it here... :pardon:


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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby 88corsica5spd28 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:42 am

He is referring to the lack of lubrication.



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Postby Chad91GTZ » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:29 am

The entire assembly can become impossible to operate. It's not designed to operate without fluid. If you choose not to accept that fact, that's not my fault.

Granted, the simplcity of the design of the rack used in a Beretta makes the likelihood of that lower than on some modern cars, but your refusal to accept that is actually strange.

The 'manual' rack that came on some caviliers isn't just 'missing the extra parts'. It's designed with its function in mind.

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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:19 pm

88corsica5spd28 wrote:He is referring to the lack of lubrication.

For a 25-year-old steering rack to suddenly become dangerous to operate over a short-term span of use with that lubrication is unlikely, whether that span is in the winter time or not. :wink: Also, the rack/pinion gear assembly itself does NOT use the power steering fluid for lubrication IIRC, and there will still be residual fluid in the rack even without a fresh supply from the pump, so the seals shouldn't dry out over a relatively short period of time.
Chad91GTZ wrote:The entire assembly can become impossible to operate. It's not designed to operate without fluid. If you choose not to accept that fact, that's not my fault.
Granted, the simplcity of the design of the rack used in a Beretta makes the likelihood of that lower than on some modern cars, but your refusal to accept that is actually strange.
The 'manual' rack that came on some caviliers isn't just 'missing the extra parts'. It's designed with its function in mind.


I do understand where you are coming from, and I didn't mean to come across in my first post hostilely towards you or anything like that -I just didn't agree with your stance that operating the steering-rack for a couple of months without power assist would endanger everybody on the road or make the car too difficult to drive (which is how you came across to me). I have personal experience operating similar (and dissimilar) cars without P/S, and so long as you know your vehicle, it isn't an issue. :pardon: Also , if you recall, I did agree with you that the repair should still be done now, rather than later. At no point did I suggest that his car should be made power-assist-free permanently either (although my V-8 Indy had been modified and the power assist on the steering rack has been removed for many years now. I do have plans to put an alternative pump on the engine to regain P/S, but I stand on my earlier statement that it isn't strictly necessary -I do have actual experience with this Chad91GTZ, I don't know why so many of the older board-members here think it is okay to assume everybody is just talking out their @$$es). In short, (oops, too late :wink:) I think the repair is worth while to do now, but it isn't necessary to do immediately in terms of safety or reliability, so long as he takes a little time to refamiliarize himself with how the car behaves without power assist. But, I could be wrong, it HAS happened before and will happen again, so I sit waiting in anticipation for someone here to find a stack of NTSB reports highlighting traffic accidents caused by steering rack failures brought on by the lack of P/S fluid for a couple of months, since you state it is a fact that the rack can become impossible to operate...


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Postby Chad91GTZ » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:56 am

I found it strange , that someone with your knowledge would advocate a 'repair' like this. Because it is indeed dangerous. If you were in an accident, and it was found that you had done this to your vehicle, your insurance would not pay out. In inspection states, you may be found CRIMINALLY at fault lol. The rack gear itself does not need lubrication from the fluid, but the pistons that drive it do. And frankly, it doesn't matter the length of time those items sit without lubrcation. Sometimes one minute is enough to cause those issues.

It has nothing at all to do with you talking out of your ass, and everything to do with you just being wrong.

Front wheel drive, front engine car. You need power steering. There is a reason why the car was never offered with that option.

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Re:

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:43 am

Chad91GTZ wrote:There is a reason why the car was never offered with that option.


on the beretta no but there was a cavi rack that is manual.

I found it under 88 2.8L

A-1 CARDONE Part # 231609 {#26000532, 7847698, 7849351, 7849353} Reman. Rack and Pinion Complete Unit (Manual)
Supplied without Inner Tie Rods



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Re: Re:

Postby Chad91GTZ » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:37 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:
Chad91GTZ wrote:There is a reason why the car was never offered with that option.


on the beretta no but there was a cavi rack that is manual.

I found it under 88 2.8L

A-1 CARDONE Part # 231609 {#26000532, 7847698, 7849351, 7849353} Reman. Rack and Pinion Complete Unit (Manual)
Supplied without Inner Tie Rods



Yes, which I stated earlier in the thread. But it was only offered one or two years, probably because it was a horrible idea. - Also note, as i stated earlier, they are not even close to the same design with less parts. They just dont function in the same way.

Bottom line, the rotary valve that makes the whole damn thing work can gall, lock, seize whatever you wanna call it. "hoping" that enough fluid remains to 'keep everything lubricated' is laughable.

If you look how more modern power steering systems work, if you didn't have fluid many of them would just CEASE to function immediatly.

Its a horrible idea. Replace the line, junk the car or get her towed!


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Re: Re:

Postby Rettax3 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:32 am

Chad91GTZ wrote:I found it strange , that someone with your knowledge would advocate a 'repair' like this. Because it is indeed dangerous. If you were in an accident, and it was found that you had done this to your vehicle, your insurance would not pay out. In inspection states, you may be found CRIMINALLY at fault lol. The rack gear itself does not need lubrication from the fluid, but the pistons that drive it do. And frankly, it doesn't matter the length of time those items sit without lubrcation. Sometimes one minute is enough to cause those issues.

It has nothing at all to do with you talking out of your ass, and everything to do with you just being wrong.

Front wheel drive, front engine car. You need power steering. There is a reason why the car was never offered with that option.

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Chad91GTZ wrote:
3X00-Modified wrote:
Chad91GTZ wrote:There is a reason why the car was never offered with that option.
on the beretta no but there was a cavi rack that is manual.
I found it under 88 2.8L
A-1 CARDONE Part # 231609 {#26000532, 7847698, 7849351, 7849353} Reman. Rack and Pinion Complete Unit (Manual)
Supplied without Inner Tie Rods

Yes, which I stated earlier in the thread. But it was only offered one or two years, probably because it was a horrible idea. - Also note, as i stated earlier, they are not even close to the same design with less parts. They just dont function in the same way.
Bottom line, the rotary valve that makes the whole damn thing work can gall, lock, seize whatever you wanna call it. "hoping" that enough fluid remains to 'keep everything lubricated' is laughable.
If you look how more modern power steering systems work, if you didn't have fluid many of them would just CEASE to function immediatly.
Its a horrible idea. Replace the line, junk the car or get her towed!

:no: You just don't make sense, Chad. You complain that this is an issue particularly because of the time of year (winter/spring) which implies a difficulty controlling the car on bad roads. Then someone else mentions that it is a lubrication issue, and you are all over that. Then you say that front-wheel drive cars need power assist right after you bring up a Cavalier non-power rack that was used, and when another member calls you on it, you claim that GM just made a mistake. There are many non-power-assisted FWD cars that have been made over the years (I have one of those too, it is a Nissan), so that argument is dead. Want to start pointing out that none of those cars are likely to have the same steering geometry as the Berettas, so that we can mention the non-power Cavvy again? :D I can't take anything you say here seriously until you start being consistent with your arguments.

I do have a lot of knowledge about these cars, and a lot of experience too. It doesn't mean that I have seen all possible issues that can arise with them, and you are 100% right that just because I haven't had a failure with any given part doesn't mean that it cannot happen, but I have multiple vehicles that have had the P/S system disabled with zero problems from it, for literally YEARS of operation... While that evidence is strictly anecdotal, it is more than the unsubstantiated opinion you have offered thusfar. :Search:

Power steering racks do NOT 'fail immediately' due to lack of fluid -it just doesn't happen, and I say show some actual evidence, or back up. The parts of a power rack that sustain high loads are not lubricated by the P/S fluid (again, IIRC), and those parts ARE the same design as those used in manual racks.

If you decide to drive your car into oncoming traffic, while drunk, blindfolded, and stoned, guess what? Your insurance company STILL PAYS when you hit someone. Disconnecting a component of your car, no matter how critical, does not release them from liability to cover YOUR mistakes, under the contract of the policy. Do you work for an insurance company? I don't think so. Want to qualify your statement to say that you meant a full-coverage policy? On a 20-something year old Beretta? :roll:

So far as being found criminally at fault, well who can say, the courts have been FUBAR'ed since the beginning, why do you think the lady with the scales is blindfolded? :D If you caused the accident, no matter what state you are in, you would be found at fault anyway, and you would typically get a citation (meaning 'criminally at fault'). In safety-inspection states, if your car is found to be unsafe, it fails the inspection and you get sent home without the ability to renew your plates until you fix it, they do not charge you with criminal negligence. :crazy: They don't cut your hands off at the wrist either, just to clarify.

And, as Jon is always saying, READ MY POSTS before criticizing! I am not so much advocating this 'repair' as I am suggesting a way to do it without destroying his power-steering pump, which could cause it to fail, which could easily cause a safety issue if it seizes and either stalls his engine or throws the belt, causing him to also lose the alternator and water-pump. I AGREED WITH YOU that the repair SHOULD BE DONE IMMEDIATELY, but no, I don't believe it is a serious safety issue, especially if used for a short time. If lack of lubrication causes accelerated wear, there would be indications of an impending failure before anything catastrophic happened.

I get that you don't like the idea of someone driving their car without power steering fluid when it was designed to use it, I think anyone reading this thread can tell that. But, really, you are being an alarmist. I would have more of a problem with it if someone wanted to bypass their power brake booster, but I wouldn't be telling them that they need to scrap their car. Drive carefully, drive slowly, give extra stopping distance, and realize that stock Beretta brakes suck even when everything is working right. :pardon: Get it fixed as soon as you can...


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Re: Power steering help ASAP!!

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:02 am

Chad's point is there is a chance of failure and if that failure happens and includes someone else regarding injuries or quite possibly death then your ass is on the line because YOU have BYPASSED something that was intended to operate on the vehicle from a safety standpoint. Yes ANY lawyer would rip you up and down for bypassing anything to do with the suspension steering or brakes on a vehicle.

Yes I pointed out the manual rack but the statement he made about them being completely different inside and the necessity of fluid to operate correctly still stands true.

Bottom line it is NOT intelligent to drive around a car that was equipped with a PS rack without the PS pump working or providing assistance/fluid to the rack. Ton's of people do it but as a stupid parent would say that doesn't make it right, legal, or OK.

BUT everyone will have their own opinion and may or may not feel that there is anything wrong with it... Just like everyone has an chump...

You've both obviously voiced your opinions and from this point you are going to agree to disagree... If I see another post by either one there will be warning's issued.

END OF DISCUSSION.

Thank you.




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