My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

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My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Browser » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:16 am

As I have read a lots of topics about the swap, then I figured out that the best thing to do is to keep everything I need in 1 thread.

Ok, so basics first. I'm restoring an 92 GT right now. Full restoration, stripped to bodywork, welding, painting, 3400 swap from 3100 and ATM to manual swap.
What I'm swapping from. I used to have 91 base (with new dash). That had 3100 and manual Getrag trans. Body got scrapped, but everything that looked good was taken down. That includes full trans, flywheel, shifter, clutch pedal, clutch cylinder etc. Only thing I remember that I forgot to do, was to cut out the trans mounting from the body, but I am unsure is this needed.

Now, so as the 92 body is taken apart and will go soon to welding, then the question about the location for engine mounts and trans mount has come to my attention.

Pictures can be seen here
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sG0Fd ... Dpc6nbTGSb

As talked with Weba then it looks the 91 uses the old style mounting. Engine mount in right front, transmission mount at left top and dog bone at left subframe.

For 92 it is engine mount right center, transmission mount at left bottom and dogbone at right subframe.

So it looks like the getrag itself is with old style mount. As I have tried to figure out the different styles and haven't come to conclusion, then I will turn to the wisest. What is the best option to go with, when I want to use 3400 engine (seen on the photos upside down) with getrag on the 92 body? As I know I was stupid enought for not cutting away the old mounts on the scrap car, then will some heavy fabrication is needed? Is it better to go with old or new style mounts?



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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby GT_Indy » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:53 am

This is the mount plans for the passenger front engine mount adapter to bolt a 3400 v6 into the old style Beretta (Gen2 v6) mounting point:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24142

This allows the Gen3 v6 in the Gen2 engine bay. Then you don't have to try and weld the Gen3 passenger style mount to the car.
There is a way to modify it to allow use of an air conditioning pump, however I haven't looked into it.


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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Browser » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:38 am

Actually I'm swapping it to 92 car, not pre 91. The manual transmission already has actually the dogbone.



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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby GT_Indy » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:37 pm

Browser wrote:Actually I'm swapping it to 92 car, not pre 91. The manual transmission already has actually the dogbone.


I think that should make it easier. I never owned a 92 so I'm not sure how its setup.
If you need metal to weld to the car this is one place I get metal from:
https://www.metalsdepot.com/


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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby woody90gtz » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:43 pm

92 has the newer engine mounts. New style engine mount will be great for your 3400. You will just need 3100 (94-96) style engine brackets and it should bolt in.

For the 92 auto trans mount, is it the same as the older style manual/auto mounts? Post a pic. I know 92 had new style 5spd mounts, but they may have kept the auto the same. If so, you should be in business there too.

If so, you'll end up like my car. I welded the 92 style engine mount for the body and used the 91 trans mount. This allowed me to use a dogbone on both sides. It's solid and I get zero wheel hop.
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91 "SS" WOT 3400/5spd - EP, FFP, TCE, SPEC, DSS, S&S, OBD1 GEARHEAD dezign

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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Browser » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:52 am

woody90gtz wrote:92 has the newer engine mounts. New style engine mount will be great for your 3400. You will just need 3100 (94-96) style engine brackets and it should bolt in.

For the 92 auto trans mount, is it the same as the older style manual/auto mounts? Post a pic. I know 92 had new style 5spd mounts, but they may have kept the auto the same. If so, you should be in business there too.

If so, you'll end up like my car. I welded the 92 style engine mount for the body and used the 91 trans mount. This allowed me to use a dogbone on both sides. It's solid and I get zero wheel hop.

So 91 donor car, where I got the manual transmission had this mount welded to body
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Adv1d ... psdb49Spbw

On the 92 car that I build, has this style of mount welded to body
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A2py6 ... 8Bzvqv3i38

As I thought of myself also, then I can take the bracket from 3100 that was inside the 92 car and put it on the 3400 to connect it to subframe at right
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1guamc ... Zk3r0mODTL

And then also as I have the trans dogbone from 91 car with subframe, I can use that also. So I have 2 dogbones as you said.



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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby woody90gtz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:19 pm

Ok, the 92+ auto mount is also different. I wasn't sure. It looks like you could fabricate a plate and stud to use the 91-older trans mount, but it may be more work than it's worth. What does the 92 auto mount look like? Any easy way to modify the 91-style trans bracket to work?

Definitely use both dogbones.

Here's an old pic to show the 3100 bracket I'm talking about, it's the big cast iron Y that bolts to the timing cover. there's another T bracket that bolts from that big one to the engine mount on the body. For correct axle alignment you'll either have to make one like I did or find one from a 92-93 v6 5spd car.
Image
Image


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91 "SS" WOT 3400/5spd - EP, FFP, TCE, SPEC, DSS, S&S, OBD1 GEARHEAD dezign

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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Browser » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:17 am

You mean this by the T piece? https://goo.gl/AFucWb

I dont get it about the Y piece. You mean the grey piece where water pump is?



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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby GT_Indy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:41 am

Browser wrote:You mean this by the T piece? https://goo.gl/AFucWb

I dont get it about the Y piece. You mean the grey piece where water pump is?


That looks different to me for some reason. Is that THe older style T off the 3.1 Gen2 engine?


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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:34 pm

No, Gen-2 ('91 and older) don't use that at all -they have the front lower that won't attach to the Gen -3 blocks and the rear perch. That pic does show part of what you need.

I have a complete '95 3100 setup if you need it, 105k miles on it clean and in good shape. PM me if interested. I hate the Gen -3 mount though -why should you have to support the engine and remove the entire mount assembly just to replace the accessory belt? And they slop around in the bay a lot more than the '91 and earlier style, they have one less mounting point to support the drivetrain.


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1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26

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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby woody90gtz » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:43 pm

That's the T I'm talking about, but it looks like an automatic version, not manual trans. The manual one is more symmetrical.

The iron Y is visible in my pic above the crank pulley.

He will have 4 mounts if he uses both dogbones.


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91 "SS" WOT 3400/5spd - EP, FFP, TCE, SPEC, DSS, S&S, OBD1 GEARHEAD dezign

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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:18 pm

Huh, it didn't realize there was a difference in the 3100 mounts manual vs auto, but I should have thought of it knowing the issue with the older MPFI mounts... I guess I thought there was enough slide adjustment for the mount at the frame...

Dogbone = sort of a mount, but not really... It is just a torsion brace that supports in only one dimension. Yes, it will greatly reduce the swing from said torsion, but the dogbones still allow more movement than an actual mount. I'm sure having two is far better than only one, but I don't know that it is as rigid as the pre-'92 setup, unless modified with poly or whatever.

Before losing one in my six-speed swap (and I still intend on fabbing a new one someday), my GTU had five mounts and one dogbone brace... My Z-26 currently has four mounts plus the dogbone, and I am probably installing another one, maybe two...


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26

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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Browser » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:16 am

Ok, now I got it. The T I got from Weba and it states on itself the letter M. The one I have on the 3100ATM lifted out of the car states an A on it. So I presume that the M states for manual and A for automatic. I will go check it out later and compare.

Also to get one thing clear.
-91 is GEN 2
92+ is GEN3
???



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Re: My 3400 + 5 speed swap thread

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:48 am

Browser wrote:Also to get one thing clear.
-91 is GEN 2
92+ is GEN3
???

Actually, I believe the Gen 3 engines were first introduced in '94, but it is looking like '92-'93 also used the later-style mounts, but I've never owned one. My '92 N-Body has those newer-style mounts, but it had a Quad-based engine originally, and although N-Bodies are virtually identical firewall-forward to a Beretta, the engine-mounts could have different specifications...


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26


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