For Sale rules: A few questions.

[SuzukiGhostRider]

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B. Vehicle Identification Number must be listed in your posting. Please list your vehicle's VIN so it's available for checking against registry reporting systems, i.e., CarFax, AutoCheck, etc. Listing false or fabricated VINs for your vehicle is grounds for banning from the site for fraudulent activity.

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D. Post a reasonable price. We are not eBay, nor an auction site, so "make an offer" is not acceptable. Reasonable price means that you have done some research and identified a fair price-point that will actually sell. Requesting "offers" without a reasonable starting point is essentially the same as requesting members to "bid" on your item(s). Listing intentional over-inflated pricing is also NOT allowed and will be subject to closure or infractions.

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D. Poor Seller / Buyer Note. Any member who is a poor seller/buyer and is unwilling to resolve any issues will be placed on a time out or banned depending on the severity of the offense. This will not be a unilateral decision, but will be based on an assessment of the situation by the moderators.

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1. I have a few issues with a few of the new "rules" in the FS section I'd like to bring up. First of all, the requirement of VIN listing. With all the scamming going on these days I REFUSE to post my VIN publicly. I would, however, be more than willing to provide it to SERIOUSLY interested buyers via PM. We have to be realistic about the world we live in today.

2. The pricing rule. Who are you to dictate what a person feels their property they are interested in selling is worth? I think a person has the right to ask whatever price they want for a vehicle. If it's exorbetent or ridiculous, the car simply will not sell. However, I don't think that a board moderator has the right to impose a price THEY think is proper on someone ELSE'S car. I don't agree with this rule whatsoever and find it truly offensive and intrusive as well.

I do ,however , agree whole heartedly with the second part of that rule. I'm sick of the "gauging interest" or "make an offer" FS threads. If you want to sell your car, you have a price in mind. POST IT!!


3. Finally, while I see the decision would be discussed, I'm a little concerned with the "ban the bad seller/buyer" rule as well. I actually agree with it. My concern is this:

What determines a bad seller/buyer? A person merely posting CLAIMING they had a bad experience or PROOF of a bad transaction the other party is unwilling to resolve? And what ARE these accepted forms of "proof" going to be? I don't think one person's word (no matter HOW GOOD the member's standing) against another's should be the standard for banning a potentially innocent member.

[3X00-Modified]

These rules I sourced from a very large successful forum with modern still produced vehicles but I guess they must have it wrong even though those members follow them without question. I'm requesting to post the vin to PROTECT you from a scam.

http://www.carfax.com/car_buying/vin_cloning.cfx

I will discuss this with Will on Friday when he is over for the weekend. Or maybe he'll give some input before then.

You also quite often chime in on what you think something should cost so maybe I can ask for your input but it sounds like now you object to that when it's written down.

[SuzukiGhostRider]

These rules I sourced from a very large successful forum with modern still produced vehicles but I guess they must have it wrong even though those members follow them without question. I'm requesting to post the vin to PROTECT you from a scam.

http://www.carfax.com/car_buying/vin_cloning.cfx

I will discuss this with Will on Friday when he is over for the weekend. Or maybe he'll give some input before then.

I don't think condescension is called for when someone disagrees with a rule or finds it to be unnecessary or intrusive.

I agree with MOST of the rules post. I just find issue with the ones I posted. I also, as an American and a free person, don't feel the need to follow rules "without question" when I feel question is needed. I mean, come on Jon. That makes it sound like we should just do whatever you say without daring to question something we may find unnecessary, intrusive , offensive or just plain wrong. This isn't China.

Posting the VIN is the best way to GET scammed these days. A little research on your part will provide you the knowledge I speak of.

[DTMAce]

I like that a discussion has been opened for this.

I personally do feel that we needed some guidelines on how a "for sale" thread should be formatted. Problem is, (and you just have to look at CL ads to notice) many people have lost the ability to write. Punctuation, paragraphs, bulletins, lists, etc. I try to make the few sale threads I have had up pretty clear and easy to read.

I will agree with SGR about the VIN. Posting it should be an option left up to the seller. But it could very easily be supplied to a potential buyer via PM, so that the interested party can check it, etc.

As for pricing, what someone wants for their item is what they may hope to get. At the same time, we all know what most of us feel is a good figure on something, and to some of us some things are worth more or less than others. I think what this guideline might hint toward is outrageous price asking or pricing that really is skewed. But I as a mod would privately PM them and suggest they research and think about a realistic price, rather than just warning, locking, banning, etc. At least give them the chance to take a second look, or to rethink it. Some people may not know what an item really is worth when they post it in the first place.

I will agree that just asking for offers on an item is something left best to Ebay or the like. If you see my item threads, most of them have prices, with shipping.

That brings me to the next point of concern. PayPal.

We all know Paypal gouges the hell out of the sellers, when they take funds for a sale. Knowing this, we all have often done the gift choice rather than sale as it doesn't put money in their pocket. However, the guideline makes a good point. Paypal will not back you on a fraudulent deal if you use gift. I guess the other thing to do, is list a price that includes a bit to cover the paypal fees... You can also ask the buyer if they would go gift instead, as long as they agreed to the risk but I see this as a negative impact.

Due to this, I will probably not ask for gift pay on paypal purchases any further. I hadn't thought about that potential issue before this posting. That being the case, I will have to pull up the fees and have them listed or linked so anyone can see what a sale price pay will cost the seller, and can adjust their price appropriately if either party feel the need.

Finally, I have this thought. It would have been nice to have some input from the members toward this guideline prior to its posting, so questions and concerns could be addressed prior.

Overall, I think its a good idea though, just may need a few tweaks to suit us as a whole. LOL

[Rex 2.0]

Proof would be any of the following:

Paypal Payment Info
Proof a money order (check) was received and cashed
Tracking #'s
any type of delivery confirmation

That is what I can think of right now.


I don't see the issue with the VIN number being posted. Tons of them are posted online via car buying websites. I could easily get a bunch just walking around some parking lots.

[Chad91GTZ]

Sending money for an item as a gift is stupid. You, as the sender, can pay the fees for the recipient. Its an option listed when you send a payment.

[DTMAce]

Sending money for an item as a gift is stupid. You, as the sender, can pay the fees for the recipient. Its an option listed when you send a payment.

Now see, that's something I did not know. LOL I will have to look for that then.

[Wanako]

Sending money for an item as a gift is stupid. You, as the sender, can pay the fees for the recipient. Its an option listed when you send a payment.

ooooo. did not know that. you learn something new everyday!

[SuzukiGhostRider]

Here's an ad I placed on THIS site almost two years ago. As you will see, and in my opinion, THIS is the format all for sale ads should follow , or at least in a similar fashion. I've listed price, condition, location, work done, good qualities, bad qualities and clear pics. I feel all things were well covered and this is how I've posted sale ads for YEARS with great success. Now, I'm NOT saying this is the only way. Just an example of a PROPER for sale ad. Note I did NOT include the VIN.

http://www.beretta.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4369

[DTMAce]

Well, if you are going to throw out examples... LOL

Here are how I have done some of mine:

http://www.beretta.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6681
http://www.beretta.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6895

Keep in mind, I will be changing some of the paypal fee explaining I did, now that I know differently. But more or less, these work for me. I sold a ton of parts off that red base, and I have to think it was due in part to the way I ran that thread. The LED thread is due for some updating very soon. More projects in the works for it.

Anyhow, presentation and formatting are a good thing to make your stuff desirable. I put in prices, descriptions, and for the most part priced to sell.

[ronaconda]

And the rules are simply incomplete. I know common sense would tell the seller to include year, make, model, etc. in their ad, but if the rules are a be-all, end-all to posting a 'for sale' ad, then the rules, IMO need to address exactly what should be in the ad. Almost seems to me that an ad should be submitted to a mod for approval... And i think one of the rules of posting an ad should be based on tenure within the group FIRST - if a member hasn't made a reputation for him/herself first through a minimum amount of posts AND a certain time period, they shouldn't be allowed to post an ad period. That in itself would reduce scammers...

[heavywoody]

I agree with Ron. No posting for sale items unless you've deemed yourself worthy of it.

Formats are good; both SGR and Ace have good layouts. Typing a paragraph about the car in run-on sentences doesn't do anyone any good.

Also, if people are concerned about getting gouged by Paypal's fees, then put in your listing that buyer must pay the Paypal fees! I see this on legacygt.com often, and I have no problem paying it for using the convenience of Paypal.

Otherwise, send a money order certified mail so it doesn't get lost. Or pay cash in person.

I don't see a need to post a VIN, but it should be provided at the buyers request so they can run a Carfax (and honestly who needs a Carfax for these old cars? They are all basket-cases in their own right since the cars are older than some of our members!) *Before anyone attacks me about the necessity for Carfax, please note that I'm a sarcastic ass most of the time.*

Jon et all, I think this needs to be revisited, and would have been a good thing to bring up beforehand as someone else already mentioned.

[3X00-Modified]

Ok lets see how many different types of rules you guys want to come up with, I can guarantee that we will be here forever trying to figure out what everyone can agree on.

And posting a Vin is NOT a way you get scammed... You get scammed by NOT knowing the Vin of the car has been replaced with another because they never provided it for you to check. If you disagree with this then never attempt to list a car on e-bay...

Be prepared to provide the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)
If you are listing a vehicle that is newer than 1981 the VIN is required. Even if your vehicle is older than 1981, it is good to include the VIN in your listing.

Rules were asked to be set in place because people were always ripping up for sale threads, I pulled rules from another board that seemed to have NO troubles with them and figured they would work here. But I guess since I posted them It's automatically the iron fist coming down; so you come up with them, I'm tired of trying to put stuff in place and to just get crap for everything and get told MY ideas are asinine when they weren't even MINE I PULLED THEM FROM ELSEWHERE!

[SummitBalt08]

I know on the Cobalt forum I'm on that the new members can't even look at the classifieds until they have 35 posts. This is a lot smaller community though, can't expect the same rules for huge forums to work on here.

[Rodville]

Here are the rules from my site. They work well there and some of them might work here. Just remember all I am trying to do is help so if you have a problem with the rules I posted please rip apart the rules and not me.

These are the rules for all For Sale and Wanted threads on Soulhamsters.com

1. All items for sale must have a listed price and a requested method of payment. This is not eBay. Be sure to mention whether the cost includes applicable shipping costs. You are more than welcome to state OBO. If you want to give/receive offers please use the PM system, to prevent cluttering the thread with lowball offers, that the seller may feel are too low.

2. Pictures are required for anything with a price over $100 shipped. The pictures MUST include a sign with your user name and the date you took the picture written on it. Any picture found to be edited to meet this requirement will result in the sale being closed.

3. Keep it legal. No sales of drugs, drug paraphernalia, firearms, alcohol, people, pornography, or any other item prohibited by local, state or federal regulation. We do not want to have Soulhamsters.com shut down over your sale. If you are unsure if an item is legal to sell, please ask a member of the moderating team..

4. All sales are the responsibility of, and run by, the individual member who starts the FS thread, not Soulhamsters.com. If someone screws you take it up with them. Soulhamsters.com staff will try to help when and if we can. If money or goods are transferred through the mail, there may be a case of "Mail Fraud". Contact your local authorities to handle that type of problem. Please try to exhaust all other methods within two weeks, before filing a PayPal dispute. Almost anything is less hassle than a PayPal dispute, but PayPal does have a time limit for how long you have to dispute a completed transaction.

5. State your location, and if the location of the items are different from your current location please be courteous and say so. This helps with the estimation of shipping costs and obviously your credibility.

6. All Classifieds section thread titles should begin with FS, GI, or WTB (or spell out FOR SALE, GATHERING INTEREST, or WANT TO BUY), indicating your reason for starting the thread. This helps members to quickly identify that your thread is not a question, but a current Classifieds item. It also helps you and other users in the future, who search for a topic in the forum archives.

7. Please limit the number of photographs to 2 pictures per item. If more pictures are requested or available, you may post them as links or send them via PM/EMAIL/IM. NOBODY enjoys scrollbars. If your pictures are too large, please resize them or ask a moderator to do so by following rule #8.

8. As with all other threads on Soulhamsters.com, you have 10 minutes, or until a new post is created, to edit your existing post. Otherwise you must inform a moderator to do it for you (Unless you are a Premier Member, Premier Members can edit their own posts, even after 10 minutes). Do so by selecting the REPORT button under the post that needs to be edited, and do one of two things. (1) Copy the entire post into the description field and edit it yourself, or (2) inform the moderator of what to edit. (Example - Someone bought my Strut Bar, please mark as sold.) The moderating team members prefer you use option (1) as we may not know your sales strategy, but either way works.

9. DIBS: most users allow the 'dibs' system. If you do not want to tolerate "dibs" then the title or first paragraph must clearly state "NO dibs." If someone calls "dibs" and you sell something behind their back because you just couldn't wait for dibs to expire, you will be banned from sales for a week. 2nd offense = 6 months . 3rd offense = banned from sales forever. Each offense will also get you an increase in your warning level.

10. Monitoring For Sale Threads: If a thread goes dead (people asking questions and the seller never responding), it will be closed. Sellers have 72 hours to respond to requests and questions. If you have a FS thread going and need to step away for a few days please post that in the sale thread as well as the date you are going to be back. The 3 day clock starts the day you state as your return date. Any threads with wording such as "I don't have time to check the forums so email me instead" Will be CLOSED and your warning level will be increased. If you post a thread, pay attention to it. You can turn on REPLY notification if you want to be contacted when a reply is posted. This can be done under the options menu on the first post of a topic.

If these rules are not followed, a moderator may (at the discretion of the moderating team) close/lock the thread until the seller/buyer contacts one of the following: Forum Moderators, Super-Moderators, or Site Administrators. Please try to contact a forum-specific moderator first, if at all possible.

The rules are in force to make this section a reliable place to buy and sell parts for our vehicles. Please abide by them as they also help you in selling your goods over this site. The moderating team has seen a ton of good transactions go through this site, and some bad ones as well. We are here to keep the bad ones to a minimum.

If there are any rule changes or additions that you feel are necessary, feel free to contact a member of the moderating team.