Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Keep this to general Beretta/Board/Community topics.
User avatar
Rettax3
Registered User
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Rettax3 »

It might be worth-while to consider a pusher setup like I've got on the GTU and also the Z-26...
Pusher fan in GTU.  Also has a puller on the other side of the radiator
Pusher fan in GTU. Also has a puller on the other side of the radiator
I know the fan is not at peak efficiency because the blades are turning backwards, but it still pushes a lot of CFM, and if it explodes, it can't hurt the engine. It is also nice to have a backup fan, just in case. These older style fans almost fit in place like they were designed to go there, a little trimming is necessary on the fan housing, but one of the mounting holes in the lower corner even lines up with the lower mounting holes of the center-support that holds the hood-latch assembly. Just a thought. I plan on doing this to all of my Berettas eventually, except for the 'T-Type' Turbo, because of the huge FMIC it has preventing a big pusher-fan from fitting.


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26
User avatar
woody90gtz
Registered User
Posts: 4698
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Walton, NY
Contact:

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by woody90gtz »

3X00-Modified wrote:damn quads... LOL At least your still enjoying the car even if it's being a bit of a pain every once and and a while... Hell my car is making a nasty sound at idle, and my fuel pressure is through the roof... haven't touched it since Bfest...
Yeah I noticed the idle sounded lopey. lol


91 "SS" - WOT 3400/5spd - 13.29@101.6 - World's fastest N/A FWD Beretta
96 "T56" LS/6spd/8.8 RWD swap - 13.45@104.7 lol
GEARHEAD dezign youtube
Bman Gtz
Registered User
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 11:23 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Bman Gtz »

I just swapped out to (2) 12 inch flex a light pusher fans, no room for stock one with headers, works awsome :)


BMAN

Image
User avatar
Asylum
Registered User
Posts: 3050
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:36 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Asylum »

The car is going away!
Needs a fan set-up, front hubs, and I have to address the tire situation.

Bye bye Quad for a few weeks!


Eric

Asylum Motorsports
"Where we're not happy 'til YOU'RE not happy!






'91 California Quad (Gone with just a bit of "Seller's Remorse".)
'92 3500 GT gone and not really missed. It was fun. Documented 13.47 N/A.
User avatar
3400beretta
Registered User
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:21 am

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by 3400beretta »

Rettax3 wrote:It might be worth-while to consider a pusher setup like I've got on the GTU and also the Z-26...
04-27-09_1911.jpg
I know the fan is not at peak efficiency because the blades are turning backwards, but it still pushes a lot of CFM, and if it explodes, it can't hurt the engine. It is also nice to have a backup fan, just in case. These older style fans almost fit in place like they were designed to go there, a little trimming is necessary on the fan housing, but one of the mounting holes in the lower corner even lines up with the lower mounting holes of the center-support that holds the hood-latch assembly. Just a thought. I plan on doing this to all of my Berettas eventually, except for the 'T-Type' Turbo, because of the huge FMIC it has preventing a big pusher-fan from fitting.
Actually it pushes ZERO CFM. The blades are one direction only, if you reverse them all they do is blow air around the side, it does not actually move any air. Your fan setup is effectively useless.


User avatar
Chad91GTZ
Registered User
Posts: 1354
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:32 pm
Location: Lomira, WI

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Chad91GTZ »

If you hated it, it wouldn't be getting goodies :D


Image
My Motortopia

Bfest Committee 2012, 2013, 2014
Bfest AND Bust 2012 Winner: First ever clutch swap at Berettafest!
Bfest 2013 Watermelon Award: Boob shaped hood dents FTW
User avatar
Rettax3
Registered User
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Rettax3 »

3400beretta wrote:
Rettax3 wrote:It might be worth-while to consider a pusher setup like I've got on the GTU and also the Z-26...
04-27-09_1911.jpg
I know the fan is not at peak efficiency because the blades are turning backwards, but it still pushes a lot of CFM, and if it explodes, it can't hurt the engine. It is also nice to have a backup fan, just in case. These older style fans almost fit in place like they were designed to go there, a little trimming is necessary on the fan housing, but one of the mounting holes in the lower corner even lines up with the lower mounting holes of the center-support that holds the hood-latch assembly. Just a thought. I plan on doing this to all of my Berettas eventually, except for the 'T-Type' Turbo, because of the huge FMIC it has preventing a big pusher-fan from fitting.
Actually it pushes ZERO CFM. The blades are one direction only, if you reverse them all they do is blow air around the side, it does not actually move any air. Your fan setup is effectively useless.
Oh, okay thanks, I guess the air-flow I felt it pushing through the radiator was just in my head. :crazy: No wonder my car never overheats, I think it cool! Efficiency is reduced, and probably quite a bit, but it is not ZERO. :pardon: Anyway, I wasn't clear enough, but I was suggesting a generic pusher, not necessarily what I have, although my setup is sufficient for my use and plugged in very cleanly.


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26
User avatar
3400beretta
Registered User
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:21 am

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by 3400beretta »

What you are feeling is that bit of air being disturbed around the ends of the blades. Take the fan off the car, and put power to it to make it spin the correct way. Stick your hand in front and take note of the amount of air you feel. Also take note of how much the fan wants to physically move in the opposite direction.

Now switch the polarity and do the same checks with the fan spinning backwards. You will feel nothing except at the very tips of the blades, and the fan will not want to move at all.

I ran a quad for an entire summer with no fan, and Eric had to drive his car home with no fan - the point is you don't need a fan if you keep moving, and even sitting still, it takes quite some time for the temp to creep up and start overheating.

Your setup is not cooling effectively, and if you sit there long enough it WILL overheat.

One more thing - a real pusher setup is fine, unless you still have A/C - which Eric does. In which case very little airflow actually makes it through the rad, which is why our cars - and 95% of cars out there have puller fans.


User avatar
Asylum
Registered User
Posts: 3050
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:36 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Asylum »

I actually drove the car to Mississauga (about 40 miles) and back twice with no fan.
It's fine as long as I don't sit in one place too long, but Rodney is right, it takes quite a while to get very warm.
I know Quads don't like heat and I'm very watchful of that gauge. Never got past half!


Eric

Asylum Motorsports
"Where we're not happy 'til YOU'RE not happy!






'91 California Quad (Gone with just a bit of "Seller's Remorse".)
'92 3500 GT gone and not really missed. It was fun. Documented 13.47 N/A.
User avatar
3400beretta
Registered User
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:21 am

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by 3400beretta »

Oh and Eric, I'm sure I have a quad fan in my garage that you can have.


User avatar
GTZfan
Registered User
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:20 pm

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by GTZfan »

Asylum wrote:I know Quads don't like heat and I'm very watchful of that gauge. Never got past half!
Same here. I aready hate it when its at half gage. Thats when the fan kicks in on mine. And normally the gage is at quarter only - on both cars - assuming its normal.


Image
1991 GTZ Quad4 black, all original, low miles. Beretta Calendar 2008, 2009, 2015
1992 GTZ Quad4 quaser, completely restored. Beretta Calendar 2011, 2012, 2013 images of the shiny quaser
User avatar
Rettax3
Registered User
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Rettax3 »

3400beretta wrote:What you are feeling is that bit of air being disturbed around the ends of the blades. Take the fan off the car, and put power to it to make it spin the correct way. Stick your hand in front and take note of the amount of air you feel. Also take note of how much the fan wants to physically move in the opposite direction.
Now switch the polarity and do the same checks with the fan spinning backwards. You will feel nothing except at the very tips of the blades, and the fan will not want to move at all.
I ran a quad for an entire summer with no fan, and Eric had to drive his car home with no fan - the point is you don't need a fan if you keep moving, and even sitting still, it takes quite some time for the temp to creep up and start overheating.
Your setup is not cooling effectively, and if you sit there long enough it WILL overheat.
One more thing - a real pusher setup is fine, unless you still have A/C - which Eric does. In which case very little airflow actually makes it through the rad, which is why our cars - and 95% of cars out there have puller fans.
I do understand what you are saying, and why. The curvature of the fan blades are similar to the camber of an airplane wing. Bernoulli's principle explains how the movement of the blade creates a low-pressure area across the back of the curved blade. However, the fan-blades on my fan are angled very steeply, and they still push air through, despite fighting against the low-pressure caused by the blade's curvature, or camber. "Angle of attack", the angle the blade sits at relative to the 'relative wind', or airflow, has a much more pronounced effect than the camber of the airfoil.

Regarding my application, I can actually feel air moving through the radiator from behind the radiator (and my car has A/C too), so it certainly is pushing some amount of air through, not just swirling air. Further, the fan motors on my cars spin hard, like they are supposed to, so the statement that my fan will not want to move at all is wrong. Some electric motors have the rotating component, or "armature", twisted in such a way that it leads the electric current and forces the armature to rotate in a single direction only -this is more typical in AC (alternating current) electric motors. I have this on three of my cars total. It isn't ideal, and in all three cases it is a back-up fan. I've been driving for a very long time, I had my first car before Regan took office, I am well aware of the fact that a moving car gets air through the radiator even without a fan, I'm trying to focus on the fact that you are trying to make a point, and not insult my intelligence, this isn't bstuff after all :wink: .

So it comes down to this:
-I have tested my fans enough to know they push air through the radiator, have you actually tested this type of fan? Are they pushing enough? That would be a valid question that is worth investigating and discussing.
-I am happy with my set-up, and it was a clean and easy installation. I'm not necessarily suggesting it is perfect, or should be used by everyone here.
-This wasn't the topic of Asylum's thread, and I'm done jacking it, I am open to PMs if you want to discuss this further, otherwise I have my opinion with evidence supporting it, do you have actual experience that is contrary to mine? When did you actually try this, did you use a newer-style fan or an older one like mine?
-I do agree that the fan is fighting itself when hooked up for reverse-polarity, I disagree that it has no effect at all.


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26
User avatar
3400beretta
Registered User
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:21 am

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by 3400beretta »

Let me explain a little further, as my last post was unclear a bit.

When I spoke about the fan physically moving in the opposite direction, I meant moving axially - the fan actually being pushed back from the amount of air it is moving (not wanting to rotate from the torque of the motor).

My testing utilized 4 different OEM fans. One was a big old square one with straight blades like you have pictured, the 2nd was a round fan with straight blades from a quad 4, the third was a round fan with S-curved blades from a 94+ V6, and the fourth a dual fan setup from a 2001 Grand Am V6.

I wanted very much to be able to use an OEM fan as a pusher, to save costs, and simply because no matter how much I chopped one up, none would fit behind the rad with the front exhaust manifold that I am using. However, after testing out all 4 on the bench, and feeling the amount of air that they move when connected in the proper direction, vs reverse direction, there was absolutely no way that I could put one on the car as a pusher and be confident that it was doing anything to cool the rad.


User avatar
Rettax3
Registered User
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Rettax3 »

3400beretta wrote:Let me explain a little further, as my last post was unclear a bit.
When I spoke about the fan physically moving in the opposite direction, I meant moving axially - the fan actually being pushed back from the amount of air it is moving (not wanting to rotate from the torque of the motor).
My testing utilized 4 different OEM fans. One was a big old square one with straight blades like you have pictured, the 2nd was a round fan with straight blades from a quad 4, the third was a round fan with S-curved blades from a 94+ V6, and the fourth a dual fan setup from a 2001 Grand Am V6.
I wanted very much to be able to use an OEM fan as a pusher, to save costs, and simply because no matter how much I chopped one up, none would fit behind the rad with the front exhaust manifold that I am using. However, after testing out all 4 on the bench, and feeling the amount of air that they move when connected in the proper direction, vs reverse direction, there was absolutely no way that I could put one on the car as a pusher and be confident that it was doing anything to cool the rad.
Okay, I understand what you what you were saying now -no I didn't test the force of the airflow that way, that is a valid test. So is feeling for airflow at the back of the radiator though. I am okay with the amount of airflow I feel pushing out the back of the radiator though, particularly since this is a backup fan (the primary fan on my 3800 GTU is a puller, no housing, sourced from a '90s-era Caddy that had dual fans, I don't recall specific year or model. Despite the lack of a housing and the smaller diameter, I think it pulls just a little harder than the car's original fan, turned as a pusher. My 3800 uses two fans, the pusher was going to be wired with a switch initially, but the 3800 runs so cool, it has rarely been an issue at all.
I also have a setup on my 'old' '88 Camaro, and it pushes air through pretty hard. That era Camaro tends to be finicky about overheating, especially with bigger engines, so I put a mechanical fan on the car, but that didn't always prove to be enough, particularly before I found a correct fan-shroud from an older Trans Am. I added the electric fan back in, as a pusher, and that seemed to cure the car.

So, I would recommend looking into a decent pusher-fan if you are having troubles with fan-blades exploding all over the engine-bay and doing damage, which seems to be a potential problem with Quads from the anecdotal evidence of two occurrences presented here. Re-using the factory fan as a pusher isn't ideal, but it is cheap (potentially free) and looks good, and it works for me, but not for 3400beretta. *Legal disclaimer: It may not be effective enough to trust a delicate Quad to, extensive Quad testing has yet to be accomplished.

Done. You are all free to move on to hating/loving Quads again. :roll: Sorry.


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26
User avatar
Asylum
Registered User
Posts: 3050
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:36 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Well it was only a matter of time. I HATE QUADS AGAIN!

Post by Asylum »

AND!!! I still HATE QUADS!

Rodney is there anything you DON'T have in your garage.

We are due for beers!!

Call you this week!


Eric

Asylum Motorsports
"Where we're not happy 'til YOU'RE not happy!






'91 California Quad (Gone with just a bit of "Seller's Remorse".)
'92 3500 GT gone and not really missed. It was fun. Documented 13.47 N/A.
Post Reply