Finally...

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EPfiffner
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Re: Finally...

Postby EPfiffner » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:37 pm

Wow, I can't believe you crammed that blown 3800 in there, I saw it in your sig, but I hadn't seen a pic. Impressive.



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Rettax3
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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:54 pm

EPfiffner wrote:Wow, I can't believe you crammed that blown 3800 in there, I saw it in your sig, but I hadn't seen a pic. Impressive.

Thank you, that was actually the EASIEST swap/conversion I've ever done. It is tight, but fits well. Only permanent mods needed to the car are two holes in the right subframe, although I also added in the two-speed fuel pump control (not necessary, but nice) which also required cutting a ground-wire to the pump, and the side-outlets for the exhaust required trimming the ground effects, which were cracked in that spot anyway.
Exhaust tips 3R.jpg
GTU's tips -both sides are the same, but sounds weird reverberating in an alley.
In many ways, the 3800 fits the Beretta better than a 60-degree engine does -for instance, the heater-hose outlets are actually at the back of the engine, so i was able to delete the pipe running half way around the engine-bay... :fool: The exhaust was the hard part, mostly because I was going for a six-pipe "Hexhaust" all the way out (had several pictures of that back in the day, I did a full step-by-step write-up on the whole build back on bstuff before it died) which was way too loud (yes, six small mufflers CAN fit under that car!) and had to be rebuilt as a dual setup.
Headers5b.jpg
GTU's headers. Ultimately ended up terminating in a true dual exhaust system.
The F40 six-speed swap I did in the car years later was pretty challenging, and I doubt I would bother again, although the ratio in my '06 tranny is nice on the highway. :good: The tranny rattles horribly in neutral, due to the internal issues they were known for, and the lack of a dual-mass flywheel that could bolt-up to the 3800's eight-bolt crank.
LftFtBrkAssy1a.jpg
GTU: That isn't a Muncie 5-speed hiding in there! :)


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby woody90gtz » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Interesting about the F40. I had heard there were issues with those 06 trannys, but never saw what they actually were. And the 07+ have a lower 6th right?

The wifey's F40 in her Cruze is nice. But it won't fit a v6, and out would rev too high anyway. Haha


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91 "SS" WOT 3400/5spd - EP, FFP, TCE, SPEC, DSS, S&S, OBD1 GEARHEAD dezign

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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:31 am

woody90gtz wrote:Interesting about the F40. I had heard there were issues with those 06 trannys, but never saw what they actually were. And the 07+ have a lower 6th right?

The wifey's F40 in her Cruze is nice. But it won't fit a v6, and out would rev too high anyway. Haha

From my research and experience with the '06 'MT2', the issues are the horrid rattling (as mentioned, and caused or made worse by the lack of a dual-mass flywheel) in neutral due to the second output shaft (F40s have two) sitting in an 'idle' position -this can effect all F40s, so far as I know? I'm sure you know about 100x more about the tranny internals than I do... And a possible disintegration of the synchronizers, typically caused by the use of light-weight 'racing' flywheels and under-dampened engines, such as may be found with underdrive pulleys. My GTU's flywheel is from a fourth-gen Camaro/Firechicken, and is far thicker and heavier than a Beretta's, but is also much lighter than a G6's dual-mass beast. Also, my 3800 is a Series II, and has the huge harmonic balancer used on most of those L67s that drive two separate belts -one for the Supercharger, and another for the other accessories. The Series IIs also have an internal counter-balance shaft, and are (stock, at least -which mine is not, although it is balanced correctly) an incredibly smooth V-6. Mostly, I have had concerns over a bearing noise that started in fourth gear, and has now become noticeable in two others -it sounds like this is from the input shaft bearing, but I am not certain and cannot see why it would be so prominent in some gears and not in others. One further issue is that the original fill data is wrong, and less fluid should actually be supplied (about three quarts vs four, I don't recall the exact quantities off the top of my head), and it is a special full-synthetic GL4 fluid, which I've gotten for a good price from Redline through Amazon -there is no dipstick, except for the designer who decided that one wasn't necessary. :o The shifting is smooth and positive, but still not notchy in the least. A great feel over the old 282s, even though I retained the old five-speed cables and shifter assembly. But, with all respect due to the *only* other F40-equipped Beretta I've ever heard about yet, I wouldn't choose the '07 MU9 on a V-6, even if some of the internal issues were resolved. :wink:

Gear Ratios-----MT2 (2006)------MU9 (2007+)
1st----------------3.77--------------3.92
2nd---------------2.04--------------2.04
3rd----------------1.32--------------1.37
4th----------------.95---------------1.05
5th----------------.76----------------.85
6th----------------.62----------------.71
Final Drive ------3.545-------------3.762


*Ratio data courtesy of Wikipedia


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby woody90gtz » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:46 am

Wow, the 2007+ actually turns more rpm in 6th than a Getrag in 5th. I probably knew that but had forgotten. Haha


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91 "SS" WOT 3400/5spd - EP, FFP, TCE, SPEC, DSS, S&S, OBD1 GEARHEAD dezign

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Re: Finally...

Postby EPfiffner » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:10 am

Its too bad your build threads went away, I would still read them, cool stuff.



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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:43 pm

Just a few in-progress pics. Once it is all together and tested, I'll pull it back apart one piece at a time, to clean and paint as appropriate. Most of these parts are old pieces, sitting around in boxes or on shelves for at least the last few years, so there is a lot of dirt and grease to clean off. I ended up installing an old 3.1 MPFI alternator -it fit the best into the A/C bracket, and needed only one small adapter plate fabbed-up on the rear, and for piece of mind, a second plate on the front. The original 3100 alternator can be substituted in, with a longer bolt.

3.4 Rgt2b.jpg
The radiator tie-bar reinforcement is in place -it still needs to be tied-back to a strut-brace or directly to the strut towers. The cut-out around the oil dipstick will likely be strengthened too.

Spark-plugs are easily accessible, even the rear ones. Pull the Tee-handle to remove the plug-wire boot, and reach down in with a nice long extension. Easier than stock 3100... T-stat is open on the driver's side, not even buried by the throttle-body, like, um, a stock 3100. :pardon:
image3.JPG
The rear-brace installed. I still want to fab-up a plate to distribute the force more evenly to the frame-rail, and the bolt isn't tightened down yet. I also want to rubber-isolate the plate to damp-down vibration.

image1(2).JPG
The tranny mount. This plate is bolted to the bottom of the Muncie out of the way. The large bolt (from the original mount of an older Beretta) is pinned-down on the other end by a rubber-coated aluminum saddle that is in turn bolted to the subframe.

3.4 Pulley1b.jpg
It is a tight fit, but it is a fit. The belt will be WAY easier to change than the stock 3100...

Hehehe. I am still debating on which turbo to use. I want to use the .60-trim T-4 from my '90 Turbo 'Retta, but it has only a 2"outlet on the intake side, I am wondering if this BW with a 2.5" outlet might be a better option, despite the obviously more restrictive T-3 flange on the exhaust side. It would need a custom exhaust outlet to fit this application, will need to be reclocked (hot-side), and an external waste-gate plumbed in (so would my T-4). I am also considering other options... :twisted:
For the Intercooler, this 2.5 in/2.5 out Saab Blackstone is a great option. I've test-fit a few other options, and anything else I have would need to be front-mounted. Not sure I want to do that here, and even this one works great as an FMIC. I'm not planning on much boost, so even this small IC should be sufficient, especially considering how well the Blackstone ICs transfer heat (the air-tubes are NOT hollow).
image1(1).JPG
Just a mock-up. This is my BW turbo, 3" in, 2.5" out on the intake side. T-3 inlet flange.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:54 am

Played around with some badging options a little today. It has always irritated me that the Z-26s didn't have any special interior badging, and no dash emblem (aside from the standard tiny "BERETTA" over the center vents. This is what I came up with... Reminiscent of the overlapping writing on the Indy dash emblems, and an honest homage to the engine's Z-34 donor, I think I am happy with how this turned out. Originally, the "Z" is just painted, the "34" is raised aluminum. The decimal for the 3.4 is an actual T4 Torx screw...
ZDashEmblm1a.JPG
"Z34" becomes "Beretta Z 3.4", I hope.

I have a door-panel emblem idea too... :P


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:07 pm

Hmm... Nah! :D
Twin-T1b.jpg
Snail racing!
Twin-T2b.jpg
A good fit, really. Reclocking would be needed, and obviously a good cleaning... Finally found the car's hidden rust too, will have to cure that up.

I went through some compressor maps the other day, and knowing that I have a pair of TD-05s (the upper turbo is one of them, the K-26 on the bottom is just a stand-in for the mock-up), I looked them over on paper, and dug one out. Not too far out-of-whack for the 3.4, and it would be really interesting to run twins... But, I already pulled my far more efficient T-04 out of my '90 Turbo, and the build is so much easier with that single one. So, staying with Plan A... But, the twins do look good in there, plenty of room for them too! :wink:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:47 pm

Finished ordering all the lines, fittings, hoses, and couplers I should need to finish this project off. I won't see everything for a few weeks, but I still have the wiring harness to do, and the replacement rear manifold should be here next week (I ordered one two weeks ago -they sent me the wrong one, TWICE! then finally gave up and gave me my money back), so I can work on the exhaust while the intake parts are being shipped. I still have to buy gaskets for the oil-pan and rear manifold, and decide on an air-filter, I might also look for a different boost-gauge, haven't committed to a pillar-pod yet, but not sure where else to mount one?


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:28 pm

Finished stripping-down the wiring harness from the 3.4. Since I no longer have A/C :( , I removed the relevant wiring to that, and since I have no intentions of EVER attaching this thing to an automatic again, those connections were also removed, except for the leads going to the gear selector switch -I need those to convince the ECU the car is in gear, so the Park/Neutral rev-limiter can be disengaged. I also retained the cooling-fan relay control leads, as I will let this ECU run the fan(s), however I decide to set those up. I've also retained the wiring going to the engine's sub-harness connectors to the EGR, just in case I want to run something else to the engine at a later date, but they are disconnected from the ECU since EgGeR will also not be back in place, EVER. Due to the W-Body cars of the era stashing their ECUs next to the engine inside the bay, I do not have a lot of options on placement unless I extend the harness, which I will not do. So, the next step is to attach everything to the engine, decide where I want to place the ECU, and loom the harness up.
3.4TDC Wiring1a.jpg
This is what I don't need from the engine-bay harness. Quite a lot!
3.4TDC Wiring2a.jpg
This is what I am keeping. Integration to the '95 Z-26 harness should be pretty easy. ALDL lead may be the hardest one to deal with, as the new ECU will not be inside the passenger compartment like the Beretta's is.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby woody90gtz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:55 pm

How much does the TDC need that the 3.1 harness couldn't control? Or are you basically changing it for tuning ability?


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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:20 pm

The harness could probably be used directly on the TDC. But I want to start running this thing on its' stock ECM, and go up from there. I want a compatible starting-point before I get into tuning. The W-Body ECM cannot be plugged in to the Beretta's harness. The piggy-back ECM setup is how I've run the GTU (I have to -digi-dash car), the V-8 Indy will be setup the same too (also digi-dash). Fast, easy, OE reliability right from the start.

Aside from the added displacement, larger injectors, and obvious tuning differences caused by the dramatically different VE on this versus the 3100 and the redline difference, the basic input/output needs are the same. Both the car and the engine are model year '95, so OBD 1.5. Beretta is of course reflashable now, the W-Body ECM still uses an EPROM. I could probably run this thing on the stock Beretta ECM, and that can certainly be programmed to run it just fine. If I want to go that route though, I would go in with my DHP and use another Venture PCM with a full-on OBD-2 (adding a MAP sensor and downstream O2 basically...). I don't recall if the DHP can reflash the '95 Beretta ECM or not...
Initially, I wasn't going to turbo this thing right away, but then I decided to just jump in and not waste the time re-building this car later. I want to start basically N/A, then work it up slowly. Anyone have an old Ostrich setup they want to sell? :P


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Rettax3
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Re: Finally...

Postby Rettax3 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:37 am

Got some serious exhaust work done today, just not much of it! :P The new manifold arrived the other day, so I got the prep work done on it. I also thought some people might be interested to see the difference between the 3.4 TDC and the 3X00 exhaust system. This is why I haven't been aching to build headers for this thing -no need.
Crossoverv5a.jpg
3.4 DOHC vs 3400. Hmmm
Crossoverv6a.jpg
...Too bad the flanges won't line-up!
Crossoverv3a.jpg
The overall dimensions between the TDC and the 3X00 aren't very different. Despite the size of the TDC crossover pipe, it actually sits much closer to the engine

RF ExManifold1a.jpg
Basically, I am flipping a second Front exhaust manifold over and installing it on the rear. This lightens everything due to the shorter casting and balances both banks, and aims the outlet towards the crossover pipe instead of away from the turbo.
RF ExManifold2a.jpg
The ports are not symmetrical, top to bottom. They are slightly "D" shaped. Minor port-matching is needed.
RF ExManifold5a.jpg
Didn't take long. Ready to go in...

Flipping the manifold is a cool trick -can't do that with a 3X00! On the other hand, you don't have two totally different heads on a 3X00 either... :roll: It is all about trade-offs... There is still some more casting-flash I want to clean up while I have the manifold off. The castings are a bit thin, IMO, so I won't be grinding any more out of the ports. Unless I ever pull the heads and port these things out, these manifolds will be plenty sufficient for me.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Finally...

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:42 am

Turbo headers are so easy to build though... flanges and short runners to a log... Done.




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