Hmmmmnnnn...

Want to know how to get more out of your Beretta? Or have a mod you would like to share?
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GT_Indy
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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby GT_Indy » Wed May 09, 2018 7:19 pm

My 4500 lb cadillac has a cammed 455 and 2.73 rear ratio, and it gets up and moves. I'd be kinda worried to have a 455 powered fiero.

The 4T65-HD, is that what came in those FWD LS Monte Carlo's and Impala's from factory?


96 Beretta Z26 swap (Daily Driver).
90 Beretta GTZ (Summer Only Daily,124k Miles, Mesa, AZ Proving Grounds Vehicle).
90 Beretta Indy (Garage Queen, Registered as a Historical Vehicle, 17,365 Miles, 100% Factory, Yellow, Digital Dash, Sun Roof)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby nocutt » Thu May 10, 2018 2:22 am

Rettax3 wrote:Not being an auto fan myself, I am left wondering what your take is on an old Muncie/Getrag 284 -I have never found any specs on it so far as torque input limitations. I keep hearing that the F40 is the strongest FWD manual transaxle GM has offered (and at 400 NM/~300 Ft-Lbs input rating, even my GTU is pushing past those limitations), but if the 284 is being overlooked, that may not be correct... Any thoughts on it?


Rettax there is so much that has been said about the getrag 284, I simply do not know what is real of fiction it is the internet afterall. Last I heard is to have the tranny shipped to Getrag of N. America for a manufacturer rebuild. As far as power goes, I don't believe it is any much stronger than a 282, however I was in Chris West 3.4 DOHC turbo back in the days and I will say that thing shifted very well in the high RPMs. And he had a good amount of power going through that thing, but it was even far from a week end warrior. The F40 is a good candidate although, the cost of putting the parts together to make it work in our cars imo offset the balance for something that cannot still be assured. I am very confident they will not last in a 45Xft/lb+ environment (road race). To be clear this is just an opinion, transmission longevity is dependent on a whole sleuth of things...

3X00-Modified said...
Glad to see you still have the car Nocutt... It would be sad to see that thing vanish since it has so much history. Sad to hear the LS4 swap didn't come together, but sadly that's how life is when you're working with the tiny Beretta engine bay...


Jon its a shame we are still here hahahahaha back burner for now...although I have to say, I thought the 3800 was shoehorned the LS4 is super hornedshoe...



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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby nocutt » Thu May 10, 2018 2:41 am

heavywoody wrote:There is a guy that is running a turbo LS4 in a W-body Monte Carlo, using a built 4T65E-HD trans. Why isn't that viable?


Hey Geoff...
There is simply no way to evaluate what this folks who say "built 4t65e" are saying. I know Jeff from EP does amazing work with these transmissions, but ppl are still breaking them. There might be new tech out there that is making these builds more feasible and perhaps viable but the price and cost of having them built I will just put something different with all the bells are whistles already built and with real literature that back its up. I think we have being around the block long enough to know how "shiny" things work in the performance niche. I think honestly, the $$$ is what turned me away, I am not 20 anymore lol just had to do a cost and benefit analysis. I am not going to start an op-ed on the NSX tranny, but after everything is said and done the options for my taste are super narrow, for the sake of benchmarking the 4t80e and NSX tranny were the last options...the 4t80e was just heavier and lacked no real support...

Post by WhiteGTZ

My 4500 lb cadillac has a cammed 455 and 2.73 rear ratio, and it gets up and moves. I'd be kinda worried to have a 455 powered fiero.

The 4T65-HD, is that what came in those FWD LS Monte Carlo's and Impala's from factory?


Fiero guys have so much iteration, the body of knowledge alone is just numbing, but like everything it is polarized. If you want to quickly evaluate all the high power V8 cars ask how many go to the strip? then ask what type of tires and how hard to they really go? Usually and generally the V6 guys tend to move the performance threshold forward more so, either ways more of them I believe have broken a 4t65e-HD than is actually realized. And this is one of the reasons this tranny has support



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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby GT_Indy » Thu May 10, 2018 11:01 am

Yah this is one of the reasons why I stopped and moved on after I did the Turbo on the Indy I had. I know it wasnt the most powerful fwd car, but I was starting to realize that I'd spend a lot more on custom upgrades if I wanted it to go faster. So I moved onto my cadillac, I put a TH400 behind my 455 and never looked back. The only drawback is I sometimes miss the novelty of a turbo fwd car.


96 Beretta Z26 swap (Daily Driver).
90 Beretta GTZ (Summer Only Daily,124k Miles, Mesa, AZ Proving Grounds Vehicle).
90 Beretta Indy (Garage Queen, Registered as a Historical Vehicle, 17,365 Miles, 100% Factory, Yellow, Digital Dash, Sun Roof)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby Ermahgerditscass » Fri May 11, 2018 9:23 am

What about goin rwd?
I've had a fun thought of throwing in a vortec motor
I though biggest I'd stuff in there is 4.3 or I can stay 4 cyl and have a 2.9l



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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby nocutt » Sun May 20, 2018 12:50 pm

Ermahgerditscass wrote:What about goin rwd?
I've had a fun thought of throwing in a vortec motor
I though biggest I'd stuff in there is 4.3 or I can stay 4 cyl and have a 2.9l


Going RWD
(1) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
(2) time
(3) headaches ...
pick two! :(



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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby GT_Indy » Mon May 21, 2018 12:00 pm

nocutt wrote:
Ermahgerditscass wrote:What about goin rwd?
I've had a fun thought of throwing in a vortec motor
I though biggest I'd stuff in there is 4.3 or I can stay 4 cyl and have a 2.9l


Going RWD
(1) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
(2) time
(3) headaches ...
pick two! :(


You forgot this:

(4) All the above.

From the few fwd swaps I've seen photos of, it looks like they cut away half the car then rebuilt its insides.
The one car someone was making it looked like he lost his back seat and trunk to suspension and gas tank.
I think it would be cool if the Beretta was rwd but I dont want to try it myself.
There was an all wheel drive pontiac 6000. I'd rather buy one of those and stick a 3500 v6 in it. lol


96 Beretta Z26 swap (Daily Driver).
90 Beretta GTZ (Summer Only Daily,124k Miles, Mesa, AZ Proving Grounds Vehicle).
90 Beretta Indy (Garage Queen, Registered as a Historical Vehicle, 17,365 Miles, 100% Factory, Yellow, Digital Dash, Sun Roof)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby Rettax3 » Mon May 21, 2018 2:15 pm

If he listed option (4), then we wouldn't need to pick two! :good: But wait, that simplifies it, AND makes logical sense, that is in the opposite direction from the discussion of RWD... :sorry:

Interesting to me that GM tested both a RWD and an AWD Beretta -I wonder how much they modified the frame? I can't recall ever seeing shots from underneath those cars, or even simply inside the trunk. The AWD 6000 has a similar frame/chassis to our L-Bodies. How much bracing did GM need to put into those? Look at the Camaros -those are Unibody cars, and fairly light weight too, in fact too light in the back -they aren't built like NASCAR tube-chassis cars, yet they still work fine, even with stock options of 300+ HP (Fourth Gen) and proven modified examples producing over two times that. I am all about overkill, but there is a point where you should question what you are trying to accomplish. A little beefing-up sounds smart, hacking, chopping, and building a small Sherman Tank into the rear of the car does not seem necessary to me. Then again, I also build street-cars, not competitive drift-class or Ralley-Cross race cars that can't perform right with any flex in them, so...

I say this meaning absolutely no disparagement to the few RWD builds I have seen here BTW -those are great projects, and the ones I can think of are all being built wonderfully and with great skill and talent, I just don't think they are the only ways to build one. I do like Barry's Nissan rear-subframe build though, I wanted to save the frame from my 2nd 300ZX for the same kind of thing, I just didn't have time to work on it that much before I had to scrap it out (at least I got the engine and 5-speed out of it, thanks to a friend's help).


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby GT_Indy » Mon May 21, 2018 11:44 pm

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/251792172 ... -l1000.jpg

I was reading about fiero v8 swaps again because this got me interested.
I wonder if a 350 and 5 speed fiero build would fit in a Beretta.
Maybe let the carb stick through the hood and do a ram air scoop turned 90 degrees to work like the rwd cars have?
Just a thought.

I have an olds 307 sitting doing nothing and a here at 282 in storage. Sometimes I wonder if its worth it. lol


96 Beretta Z26 swap (Daily Driver).
90 Beretta GTZ (Summer Only Daily,124k Miles, Mesa, AZ Proving Grounds Vehicle).
90 Beretta Indy (Garage Queen, Registered as a Historical Vehicle, 17,365 Miles, 100% Factory, Yellow, Digital Dash, Sun Roof)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby Rettax3 » Tue May 22, 2018 3:45 am

:no: I tend to doubt it could be done without substantial frame modifications. Fieros have a lot more engine-bay width. Even then, the small-block installs typically use an electric water-pump, because there isn't enough room for a pulley... Tight.

I could make some measurements, but even my Northstar Indy has major fitment issues -the crankshaft pulley tucks UNDER the right frame-rail, and the tranny (Muncie 282) is pushed so far to the left that the CV axle is borderline close to binding. Even using a steel adapter-plate to attach a different V-8 to the Muncie has to take SOME space -the N* in my Indy is bolted directly to the Muncie which saves that fraction of an inch. :roll: Like power? Um, like, electrical power? :D The N*'s alternator is mounted low, with the A/C compressor. Custom brackets might get a low-mounted alternator on a SBC (Small Block Chevy) or another engine, but it will have to stay tucked-in close to clear the radiator, and the right sub-frame (which was also notched on my Indy to clear the remaining accessories), not leaving a lot of room. Power steering was initially lost on my car (crank pulley under the frame-rail means no belt coming up to the pump, and there is zero room at the rear of the engine either), but the Northstar runs a separate belt off of the front cylinder-head on the transaxle side to run the water-pump, my intent is to run a Quad 4 small-pulley P/S pump off of that same drive pulley with a remote reservoir taken from a 3800 Camaro. Not any kind of an option on a regular V-8 (not that we really NEED power steering though, even with the weight of a V-8 sitting up front)... :crazy: This isn't the end of the issues either. Consider clearance to the brake master cylinder. Steering-rack and inner tie-rods how they stick out into the bay. Flywheel. Radiator hoses -adapting a RWD engine to FWD, how much extra plumbing will be necessary? How about fuel delivery? Oil-pan clearance, both to the right sub-frame (even the FWD N* doesn't come close to clearing our narrow frames) and even to the ground if your pan is deep enough. Consider the shift cables to the Muncie -the N* has issues there too, not sure if another engine would though.

If you want to measure the dimensions of your Olds 307, I can compare that to a N*, just for reference. I would love to see it happen, but thusfar I know of exactly two FWD V-8 Berettas built (GM made the other one). :pardon: There are a lot more RWD V-8 Berettas out there, for what that says about it.
:runsies: <<<------


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby GT_Indy » Tue May 22, 2018 10:17 pm

With a Northstar like that in a Beretta I'd make the alternator fit then look for an electric version of the AC, water pump, and power steering if I really wanted it to work. But thats a tight fit. I know the Northstar is large. I used to have an Eldorado. They are great engines but they have their own issues. Did you get the stud conversion?

I still have plenty of time to think what I want to do with my own gtz. I might even consider an electric option in the future. The chevy bolt is small enough. lol


96 Beretta Z26 swap (Daily Driver).
90 Beretta GTZ (Summer Only Daily,124k Miles, Mesa, AZ Proving Grounds Vehicle).
90 Beretta Indy (Garage Queen, Registered as a Historical Vehicle, 17,365 Miles, 100% Factory, Yellow, Digital Dash, Sun Roof)

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Re: Hmmmmnnnn...

Postby Rettax3 » Wed May 23, 2018 12:57 am

WhiteGTZ wrote:With a Northstar like that in a Beretta I'd make the alternator fit then look for an electric version of the AC, water pump, and power steering if I really wanted it to work. But thats a tight fit. I know the Northstar is large. I used to have an Eldorado. They are great engines but they have their own issues. Did you get the stud conversion?
I still have plenty of time to think what I want to do with my own gtz. I might even consider an electric option in the future. The chevy bolt is small enough. lol

On my Northstar, both the alternator and A/C have been retained in factory glory. The water-pump (there is no bolt-on electric option for this engine) is no problem either. I considered adding an electrically-operated power steering system, it just isn't the easiest way to go I think. And I have enough cars without P/S that I'm not really too concerned. Mine has never had the head-bolts replaced or needed the thread-sert or time-sert upgrades, it is actually the 4.0-Litre L47 ("Aurora" engine), it has low mileage and those engines are not as prone to the same failures that the 4.6-Litre versions are so known for. Same physical size block, with thicker cylinder sleeves, they are a lot more solid, and less stressed too as they make less power ("only" 250 HP stock), though weigh much more than a 4.6. These were the ones Oldsmobile used in their 'Aerotech' race cars, well, and 1000-HP Quad-4s, of course!
Electric would be cool -"Take that, Tesla! I have a high-volt GTZap!" Haha! :burn:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26(Project)


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