what did you do to your ride today?

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88_GTU
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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby 88_GTU » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:21 pm

Finally installed my wilwood kit. Got it done just in time for the rain to ruin any chance to break them in properly. Only got to make a handful of slow stops from 30-40mph but they feel damn good. Hopefully tomorrow's a little nicer so I can break them in properly.


88 GTU 5spd 67k black
89 GTU 3500/5spd swapped 79k white
08 TBSS LS2 AWD

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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby 1988GTU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:51 pm

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Went to go mess with a beater car... fuuuuuuu
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I got this! :D


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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Rettax3 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:53 pm

1988GTU wrote:Image
Went to go mess with a beater car... fuuuuuuu
Image
I got this! :D

Is it pretty, nasty, or pretty nasty? :D That lugnut will be fun...

I bought a set of nice black '93 GTZ wheels with good tires that had a transferable warranty on them from the junk yard a few years ago, and put them on my GTU for the winter since the tires that came with the car, while great, didn't handle the snow so well. The original wheels were stolen while the car was wearing the GTZ rims, so they reside there full-time now :cry: . I also have ONE spare GTZ wheel that I bought a long time ago, it is that same pink with rattle-can black over it... Did you find the long lost twin?! :lol:

I'm having some issues with the concentric slave/TOB on the GTU's six-speed F40, the factory crap is all plastic junk, and the stupid Torx-bolts that hold it in are recessed in the middle, so the Torx bit has roughly 1 millimeter of depth with which to grab (about 1/25th of an inch) -then they loc-tite the little !$%^#!'s in there. I really hate these things -give me an external slave and a clutch-fork any day. I pulled the car into the garage yesterday to pull the trans again and straighten it out. Hopefully the only major growing-pain I'll have to deal with regarding the swap, then she should be back on the road for more, um, 'testing' -yeah, that's it, more testing. :D While the trans is out, I'll put in new hard-pipes for the heater-core supply lines to eliminate most of the rubber that was hanging out around the rear headers and to simplify hose replacement in the future to "six inches of 3/4-inch heater hose, and three inches of 5/8-inch heater hose, please". The engine has a pretty good oil leak too that I would like to investigate further, but right now that is anti-corrosion treatment on a fairly rust-free Beretta... 8)

I took the old Plymouth out to a local drive-in car show this week. Just a casual thing they do in the area, but some really impressive cars turn out sometimes -I should try to get photos one of these days. I accelerated aggressively once I hit the highway out of town, and the old bomber left some tire behind... I didn't really mean to smoke 'em, but it is nice to know the old gal can still spin like that without me yelling at her to. Once we got up to speed (only a 50 MPH limit out here on these two-lane country highways, so it only took a blink to get there), I did what any decent driver would do: I shifted into second. 8)


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby 1988GTU » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:10 am

That wheel came with the car long time ago fwir. Already have the stud drilled out, now I am just being lazy. I need to make a trip to the part store and pick up a stud then reassembly it with my other parts on hand. I even have a set of tires I will be swapping over. Not enough hours in a day!


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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:28 am

Rettax3 wrote:I'm having some issues with the concentric slave/TOB on the GTU's six-speed F40, the factory crap is all plastic junk

Dropped the F40 today. I think it might have actually been easier to pull than the 282 was. It is hard to say for sure though, since I took the time to pull the rear left engine mount off of the 3800, something I didn't ever do when dropping the old 5-speed. Even still, the engine didn't want to move much inside the bay -it is just really secure in there, I don't want to know what it would take to make it come out of there any way other than deliberately.

So, sure enough, the chintzy retaining-ring on the concentric slave/throw-out bearing popped loose -probably my fault really, I knew that these conversions typically require a spacer between the TOB and the clutch fingers, that is well documented on the Fiero sites, and V-8 Archie even produces a part for this- but I thought the modifications I've made to the transmission and the thicker 3800 flywheel brought it all in together close enough -I was wrong apparently. I need to go over my notes and see if I mis-calculated or if the clutch diaphragm just has more travel than anticipated. So, it is time to make some spacers for this. :roll: I also need to research the '01 GA master cylinder I have in the car now to make sure the piston isn't so big that it will cause the TOB to over-extend anyway, like the Fiero ones do, or I may have to shim-out the master away from the firewall to keep it from doing that, which will put the pedal closer to the floor and shorten my pedal-throw. :roll: Yuck. I don't think the piston is too large though, the pedal feels too soft to be loosing that much hydro-mechanical advantage over the slave cylinder... Luckily, it doesn't look like my TOB was damaged, just popped apart -I still say it is cheap junk. Since it all worked for a while, I may not actually have any design-flaws here, especially considering the under-sprung feel of the clutch-pedal and the clutch engagement point I was feeling low towards the end of the pedal travel -the TOB may have just failed because the retaining ring is a serious weak-point (probably on purpose to provide a non-catastrophic failure-point) on a generally cheaply-built POS. I 'love' the newer GM stuff so much I want to sing, "Have you driven a GM.. Lately?" :ROFL:

While it was out, I also took the time to wire-wheel the left sub-frame clean, removing all grime and rust. I started on the lower A-arm too, but it wasn't very dirty and the original paint was mostly intact with virtually no rust, so I just cleaned it chemically. I coated it all with an industrial gloss black paint -pretty strong stuff, I've used it on a couple of engine mounts, and it stands up to abuse pretty well. I'll snap a pic or two before I put it all together... I won't be doing the right sub-frame any time soon though, it doesn't need to come out of the car right now, and it is covered in grease (a good rust-proofing all its' own) from the power steering line that went bad last year, a seeping CV joint boot that came with the old five-speed I had first put in the car, and a leaky oil-pressure sender, plus all the 20-year-old grime that was on the thing when I bought the car and first swapped-in the 3800 in the dead of winter a few years ago. My wire-wheel (actually a wire cup, for my angle-grinder) is now mostly gone, shedding the remaining bristles like a cat in summer, so I would need a new one first anyway. Or a chisel.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby woody90gtz » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:05 pm

Fixed my co-workers car yesterday. '04 Grand Prix GT with a broken spring in rear. Now it has new struts, springs & mounts and a swaybar end link that got damaged by the broken spring. Bought quickstrut assemblies from RockAuto and it goes so much faster that way. Came apart surprisingly well for an '04 in NY, too.


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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 pm

woody90gtz wrote:Fixed my co-workers car yesterday. '04 Grand Prix GT with a broken spring in rear. Came apart surprisingly well for an '04 in NY, too.

I worked on an '01 Grand Prix about a year ago. Four-door SE model, very clean, everything came apart nicely and even the hardware was mostly clean. The whole car was virtually rust-free, except for the rocker panels, which were eaten clean through. :unknown: Darnedest thing I've ever seen. The car ran great, handled really well -I've just sworn up and down I won't own another Pontiac (aside from my Fieros and the '92 Grand Am that keeps coming back every time I sell it -I should name that car 'Boomerang'. An '89 Turbo Trans Am would join my collection too, if I ever found one for an affordable price that wasn't ready for the scrap-bin...), or it could have tempted me a little.

I washed the old Plymouth again, and vacuumed-out the interior, before running her out for another car show yesterday. 'Tis the season... I'll be taking her out to two more shows this week, and I think that may be just about it for me this year. If I could ever get around to replacing the headliner in the Yellow Indy (I have the fabric -the original grey cleaned-up really nicely in the washer, I just need to make sure it isn't stretched, and I bought some yellow cloth to sew in a pair of stripes to accent the ones in the seats), I would take her out to one or two shows too.

Today's plan is to finish the GTU's F40 TOB measurements and collect whatever materials I need to build a spacer(s), if necessary. I'm also going to have to track-down a source for decent automotive paint so I can respray her hood and a few other patches -that will help her out immensely, and she can be taken a a show or two also (maybe next year).


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby weba » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:43 pm

I figured out why my new internal slave\bearing assembly failed with almost no miles.

It actually extended so much that the cylinder came out of the bore and started leaking hydraulic fluid.

I'm running 87-92 clutch disc in 93-94 transmission, and seems internal slave units really need thicker clutch assembly... Trying to resolve this with a spacer under the slave cylinder

Never realized that there is actually a difference between 92<>93 clutch... :o



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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:16 pm

weba wrote:I figured out why my new internal slave\bearing assembly failed with almost no miles.
It actually extended so much that the cylinder came out of the bore and started leaking hydraulic fluid.
I'm running 87-92 clutch disc in 93-94 transmission, and seems internal slave units really need thicker clutch assembly... Trying to resolve this with a spacer under the slave cylinder
Never realized that there is actually a difference between 92<>93 clutch... :o

:shock: Wow, I am shocked that you are facing almost identical problem to my six-speed symptom. I will need between nothing and 1/8 inch spacer for mine (still not certain mine came apart just because of excessive clearance and not merely because of crappy design/construction, but I am hedging all of my bets here, and rebuilding my TOB with Loc-Tite :wink: ), and it can take about 1/2 inch maximum before the end of the concentric slave will actually hit the friction-disc as it moves off from the flywheel while disengaging. I am building a 3/8 inch spacer, but because the input shaft on the F40 only has a small oil-seal contact area and the oil seal is built into the slave/throw-out bearing/oil-seal/what-else-can-they-make-one-small-POS-do, I will have to put in another oil-seal (1.125" I.D., for those interested) and fabricate a carrier-plate to hold it in place (this will all be part of the spacer assembly, too). Further, I may have to adjust the master-cylinder's actuation rod, or just space the master out away from the firewall slightly, depending on if the master can push enough fluid into the slave to over-extend it. I don't know the piston diameters of either the '01 GA master I am using, nor the G6 GTP my transmission was designed for, so I still have to go back into research mode for that.

I didn't know there was a '92/'93 difference either. I really don't like internal slaves...


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:48 am

You guys hate internal slaves and us race car people spend hundreds to convert to a hydraulic throw out bearing assy... I love the one on the modified... Bolted to the bell housing and spaced by the length of the sleeve, Math all done when you purchase it for whatever clutch you have and what motor plate your using between the engine and bell... The old Sportsman car was nice just slipped over the output shaft of the trans and was held in place by one of the bolts converted to a stud.



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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby woody90gtz » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:04 am

Yeah, everything these days is internal. I like the simplicity and serviceability of the fork. All three of my hydraulic clutches are forks...and the newer versions of every one of those trans is internal.


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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Cliff8928 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:32 pm

I'm with Jon, I switched mine to internal, It just works so much better.


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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:58 pm

I would think you guys would switch for simplicity and availability... Fork's are not easy to find anymore you know that first hand Eric.



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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:59 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:I would think you guys would switch for simplicity and availability... Fork's are not easy to find anymore you know that first hand Eric.

...But they almost never need replacement either. The main issue I have with the concentric slaves is their inaccessibility, in case something goes wrong. I actually pulled the Isuzu five-speed from my '97 Z-24 and replaced it with an older five-speed from a Grand Am, just to get away from the concentric slave. Of course, the whole replacement tranny cost the same as a new concentric slave would have, and I had to pull the tranny to get to the concentric anyway, so for me to be sure this wouldn't end up a recurring set of events, it was worth it. Plus, it gave me the original tranny as a spare (which I ended up needing for the second Z-24 I bought with my niece), so it was all win for me.

I also don't like the cost for parts -the slave/TOB units are stupidly expensive as compared to individual parts (usually about double the sum of conventional TOB and external slave). Additionally, who here replaces the external slave-cylinder, just because they are doing a clutch job on their car? %) With concentric slaves though... :pardon:

They are a little lighter weight though, so if you are the kind of driver who sand-papers their underwear down to pick up 1/100,000 of a second at the track, I suppose that would matter. :roll: And they do have less overall moving parts. But I don't think the reliability has gotten any better with them over external slaves. Forks are rarely an issue stranding you on the side of the road, and the external slaves have a simpler fluid-seal on them with less than half the sealing surface (most or all concentrics have to seal around both inside AND outside piston diameters)...

Eventually, availability of the concentric slaves will be just as prevalent an issue as new forks for the older transmissions are now. I still won't switch over to whatever automatic BS they are selling at that time... I may just have to buy a C&C machine by then to keep my old junk running. :D

My old Plymouth uses a direct mechanical linkage (as did my old plow-truck), and most of it is adjustable on the side of the road with a 1/2" wrench. To me, serviceability equates to reliability more than simplicity does, and certainly much more than 'newness' does -everything eventually gets old and wears. :pardon:

Oh well, personal preference, really.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3.4 DOHC 5-Speed Z-26(Project)

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Re: what did you do to your ride today?

Postby Asylum » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:49 pm

I washed the little bugger. Got it all cleaned up for CSCS on Sunday then it overheated again on the way home.

Just went to 3/4, shut it off, but I am absolutely fed up with this overheating crap.

Underground parking SUCKS!!! I need as damn garage again.

Wha wha wha!!


Eric

Asylum Motorsports
"Where we're not happy 'til YOU'RE not happy!






'91 California Quad
'92 3500 GT gone and not really missed. It was fun. Documented 13.47 N/A.


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