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Money pit Beretta
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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:47 pm

Loved BWD. Had many sensors from them over the years. Replaced the TPS on the GF's car with BWD years back as well as on my car. Seemed to help her car a bit, but it was still shifting strange. Just thought it was getting old and worn out. Last year put a Delco in and it started shifting much better. Should have done that years ago. Sometimes you just get a bum sensor. Now BWD has three levels: low, mid and high. Low and mid are junk. The high is just as much as Delco. More or less it's the same thing anyway.

Aftermarket sensor quality has gone down over the past few years. Would take one from Mexico over just about any China sensor.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby 1988GTU » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:59 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:
Amateur wrote:Voila! The whole temp sensor debacle has been sorted out. Seems like my car doesn't play well with any coolant temp sensor that's not ACDelco. The BWD I had over the weekend read temps a little higher than actual and didn't engage my fan when it was supposed at halfway. The O'reilly Masterpro brand was godawful; the car temp readings was bouncing all over the place and the check engine light turns on.

I went to the junkyard and pulled an ACDelco 3pin from a '95 olds cutlass/buick century (didn't get a good look at the car), and the Beretta runs perfect. the temp reads in operating range and the fan kicks on when it's supposed to.


Time to start questioning the PN they are giving you and if it's even the correct one if it's causing that many issues. I mean a sensor is a sensor, quite simple really and I can't understand how different brands would act that differently. For instance I do not have only ACDelco sensor on my car, I have a variation of BDW and NAPA stuff.


It has been found for late GM vehicles using individual coils per cylinder (remote or COP) can have a unique set of coils used. No real rhyme or reason for it, but it is something to be aware of. You cannot have the two styles mixed/used on the very same engine due to a design difference, however, you can change them all to one style or the other. You must remain consistent for which style you use.

Example
Early avalanche's can be equipped with a set of round and a set of square coils, not both under the same hood. If equipped with squares, you can swap to round, but all eight must be changed over. Same logic for the other way.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby 1988GTU » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:03 pm

Money pit Beretta wrote:Aftermarket sensor quality has gone down over the past few years. Would take one from Mexico over just about any China sensor.


Sadly, this i agree with.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby Amateur » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:49 pm

Ya took out a 240? lmao, I have to ask what kind of driver were they?
Where is the toyota on the achievment list?


That 240 seems to only have done one run, mechanical problems? I'm sure if he had a few more runs, probably would have slaughtered the poor Beretta lol.

Also here's were my brother landed:
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He wasn't to far off from me. Those Celica's have really close gearing and he had stickier direzza compounds compared to me.

Seriously, the Beretta's only strong suit is its handling. Just look at how well it attacks the slalom with minimal bodyroll:
Image

Time to start questioning the PN they are giving you and if it's even the correct one if it's causing that many issues. I mean a sensor is a sensor, quite simple really and I can't understand how different brands would act that differently. For instance I do not have only ACDelco sensor on my car, I have a variation of BDW and NAPA stuff.


I'm baffled by it too. The designs are the same and everything. GM used the 3pin and 2pin in that era with the 3pin being for the older vehicles and 2 being used generally around 95 and up with the jbodys L4s. Maybe my car is just a special snowflake.

Loved BWD. Had many sensors from them over the years. Replaced the TPS on the GF's car with BWD years back as well as on my car. Seemed to help her car a bit, but it was still shifting strange. Just thought it was getting old and worn out. Last year put a Delco in and it started shifting much better. Should have done that years ago. Sometimes you just get a bum sensor. Now BWD has three levels: low, mid and high. Low and mid are junk. The high is just as much as Delco. More or less it's the same thing anyway.


I have other odds and ends in my 'retta that's BWD with no issues. Could be a bum sensor but it just throws me for a loop since the coolant temp sensor is a real simple piece of equipment.

It has been found for late GM vehicles using individual coils per cylinder (remote or COP) can have a unique set of coils used. No real rhyme or reason for it, but it is something to be aware of. You cannot have the two styles mixed/used on the very same engine due to a design difference, however, you can change them all to one style or the other. You must remain consistent for which style you use.

Example
Early avalanche's can be equipped with a set of round and a set of square coils, not both under the same hood. If equipped with squares, you can swap to round, but all eight must be changed over. Same logic for the other way.


Wow, that's a very interesting read. I would never have thought of something like that would even be an issue.

Also I'm pretty I narrowed down why my car has trouble starting when up to temp. Looking at the symptoms, it's probably heat soak with my starter or batter cable connections connected to it. They are so damn close to the exhaust and I know for sure I have some exposed cable where the insulation came off. Heat increases electrical resistance which requires more power to overcome until the resistance reaches that point that not enough power can be supplied to get it going. My battery is fine but when I try to crank at temp, it draws a lot of electricity that everything goes dim and the battery starts releasing a lot of hydrogen gas after a crank or two.

It turns over fine when cold.



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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby Cliff8928 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:06 pm

1988GTU wrote:Example
Early avalanche's can be equipped with a set of round and a set of square coils, not both under the same hood. If equipped with squares, you can swap to round, but all eight must be changed over. Same logic for the other way.


The round and square coils mount differently (different bracket) and the plug wires are different lengths, that's why you can't have both.

I've rarely had any issues with aftermarket sensors, however if an ACDelco is available for a minimal price difference I usually choose that.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby 1988GTU » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:49 am

Cliff8928 wrote:
1988GTU wrote:Example
Early avalanche's can be equipped with a set of round and a set of square coils, not both under the same hood. If equipped with squares, you can swap to round, but all eight must be changed over. Same logic for the other way.


The round and square coils mount differently (different bracket) and the plug wires are different lengths, that's why you can't have both.

I've rarely had any issues with aftermarket sensors, however if an ACDelco is available for a minimal price difference I usually choose that.


Square type can be replaced directly by the round type without modifications or other accommodating parts.

Round to square creates an issue with plug wires reaching their respective coil and spark plug.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby ifixalot » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:56 am

Hot start issues maybe caused by the starter being to close to the flywheel.
As the engine/flywheel heats, the flywheel expands and maybe the ring
gear binds on the starter.
Try putting a shim on one side of the starter to move the gear away from the flywheel just a bit
and see if it improves.
Electrical resistance increases with temp so the load on your battery would be less, not more.
Cold engines usually draw more current because the oil is thicker cold. It should spin easier when hot
unless something in the engine is too tight. You could also see how much torque it takes to turn the engine
both cold and warm and see if the engine is binding somehow.



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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby woody90gtz » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:24 am

ifixalot wrote:Electrical resistance increases with temp so the load on your battery would be less, not more.

Nope. Resistance goes up and available voltage goes down. Hot start issues are very commonly a problem due to the resistance.

Think of voltage as pressure and amps as flow. When the voltage drops due to resistance, it is more difficult to get the amperage flow needed to turn the starter. The start circuit is the highest amp circuit in the vehicle, and therefore the most susceptible to heat.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby ifixalot » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:40 am

Ohm's law says, as resistance goes up, current, or amperage goes down. This is a fact.
He seemed to be indicating resistance is causing more current to be drawn from the battery.
I'm saying something is causing more load on the starter, which is drawing more current which is heating the wire.
The heat in the wire means the limits of the current that wire can pass are being reached.
He says when cold, it starts fine. Usually a cold engine requires more current to spin than a warm
engine due to the oil being thicker at lower temps.



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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby Money pit Beretta » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:32 am

Watching the video it almost looks like the passenger rear is about to come off the ground. Sure this is not so, but make me think more power could make it happen. Ah, it's early and I may not be fully awake.

Do you have a frame brace? Always wanted to brace the subframe in the front and rear. The core support has got to flex a lot. Someone here did brace the upper core support.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby woody90gtz » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:11 pm

ifixalot wrote:Ohm's law says, as resistance goes up, current, or amperage goes down. This is a fact.
He seemed to be indicating resistance is causing more current to be drawn from the battery.
I'm saying something is causing more load on the starter, which is drawing more current which is heating the wire.
The heat in the wire means the limits of the current that wire can pass are being reached.
He says when cold, it starts fine. Usually a cold engine requires more current to spin than a warm
engine due to the oil being thicker at lower temps.

Yes, I am familiar with ohm's law. But I am quite sure you are looking at this wrong.

The high amperage start circuit is not active long enough to build enough heat to add a lot of resistance. However, heat soak from running for 20-30 mins would be enough to add enough resistance to make the high amperage start circuit fail. This is a common issue with headers close to the starter. It could also be a slightly loose connection or frayed wire that has enough continuity to work when cold, but not when warm with additional resistance.

To remedy this, I would replace the heavy wire from the battery to the starter, and the heavy ground wire from the battery to bellhousing. If that doesn't fix it, and I would be surprised if it didn't, it could be the starter. You could try a heat shield for the starter too, but that is not very likely to work IMO.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby Amateur » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:58 am

Watching the video it almost looks like the passenger rear is about to come off the ground. Sure this is not so, but make me think more power could make it happen. Ah, it's early and I may not be fully awake.

Do you have a frame brace? Always wanted to brace the subframe in the front and rear. The core support has got to flex a lot. Someone here did brace the upper core support.


It's able to, all it needs is stickier tires. Hoosiers should easily make that happen, Direzzas can too just ever so slightly. What I have now is Sumitomo HTZ ZII ulltra high performance on the fronts only. It was a performance on a budget buy and I'm satisfied by how they perform considering I paid like $60 for each one. Nothing extreme but not has horrendous as normal compounds. It also does really well in rain.
Another cheat is to lessen my front sway bar to get that rear wheel to lift but I don't like the drop in steering responsiveness coupled with the tail happy oversteer property.

The plan is to stiffen the rear a little more and to run full on slicks next year, which should cause that lift quite easily. Old school boxy civics were doing that in spades this event (must be hell to drive on normal roads).

No subframe braces on this car btw.

What I need is something like this lol:
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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby ifixalot » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:55 am

My quote "Electrical resistance increases with temp so the load on your battery would be less, not more."

Your quote "When the voltage drops due to resistance, it is more difficult to get the amperage flow needed to turn the starter."

It looks to me as if were both saying amperage is less when hot so I'm still looking at it wrong?
He said his lights dim when cranking and his battery fizzes after cranking. That sounds like drawing too much current.
Yes, maybe his wires and grounds are bad. Maybe his connections to the battery are bad and the heat on the
terminals is causing the electrolyte to boil and the lights to dim.
Neither you nor I are there to test cranking amps or put a volt meter across the starter cable to measure the voltage drop
when cranking. Because I am not there, I only suggested "a possible alternative theory" to what he presumes is the problem.



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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby Money pit Beretta » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:49 pm

LOL was thinking that having the tire lift was a bad thing. Shows what I know. Still have an odd frame brace if it would work on your car. Hangs down lower on one side and I have no idea why. Would think a nice 1/4 inch steel plate would be better anyway.


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Re: Chevy Beretta FF

Postby woody90gtz » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:23 pm

I'm saying the resistance is causing the voltage drop and lack of amperage, and the amperage is not causing the resistance and voltage drop. There is more load on the battery because it would have to supply a higher voltage to overcome the voltage drop to flow the same amount of amps.

Maybe there is a miscommunication here, but I'd hate to see him waste his time on the wrong fix. It sounds pretty straight forward. That's all.


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