Supercharged beretta v6 dynoed

[Norm 88GT]

Quote (spacecadetz26 @ April 06 2004,04:23)on that third one, why does it show your gear ratio to be way off?
Here you go.  If you want to play with the program Rex posted a link in late July to dynojet and copies of all the dyno runs from BerettaFest '03.  I can send mind too.

[Norm 88GT]

[Guest]

Do you have an upgraded fuel pump?

[Norm 88GT]

Quote (ericm555 @ April 06 2004,10:55)Do you have an upgraded fuel pump?
Stock fuel pump right now.

To prove that the RC Engineering work I dynoed(try it sometime nocutt, then use this information instead of hearsay) I had 24 lbs injectors. to 197.8 at the flywheel

(24 x./.6 = 32

32 x 6 cylinders = 192 hp

The 24 is obviously the injector size.  .8 is the injector ducty cylce(DC) which is 80% since they don't open and close properly at anything higher than 85%.  .6 is the BSFC for turbo or SC(read something like 12.5:1 air/fuel).  When turbo of SCed we usually see 26-28 degrees of advance with a good IC.  I was running 32 degrees at peak power which rule of thumb say 2-4hp per degree.  So my actual BSFC(brake specific fuel consumption) was around .57.

The math matches real world in this example.  Play with fuel pressures and it is thrown out the window.

[Guest]

You really should get a Walbro 255LPH pump there just under $100 and a direct fit. I have one in my GTZ and one sitting in front of me for my DSM.  

[nocutt]

Norm...lol!! I was just talking with my relative this morning @ school, and he showed me a thread that WILL put the damper on this, here: BTW he is running a stock computer with a chip, 23PSI of intercooled boost...he is however running a little bit more timing...etc.

http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums....d=20689

This is another very intresting thread, because I helped this member delve into this project, now designing a turbo kit for GPs... math is good to keep you on track, however the real world is not so much black & white...injector calculation are guides, I think it is always good to run bigger injectors regardless unless you are absolute on your tunning...*Alas there are still too many variables

http://www.clubgp.com/newforu....7910195

[I-GOT-BOOST]

Hey Norm, What engine do you have, what supercharger or turbo are you using, what ecm, and what is your cam grind? If you give me this information, I may be able to help you before you spend any money you don't need to.

[Norm 88GT]

I-GOT-BOOST, The engine is a 3.1 bored .030" over, crane 2030 cam, tubular exhaust, Powerdyne supercharger, F.A.S.T. programmable ECU with wideband.

nocutt, nice research done by the turbo buick fourm.  I'll have to review even though the results I am a bit skeptical of the 14.4v is questionable as my alternator does not put that much out.  Most regulators try to keep charging to 14.0 max.  

European turbo cars have rising rate FPRs from the factory.  The after market offers even higher rate FPRs...2 bar, 3 bar...  The Japanese use two pumps or a dual stage pump that kicks in at higher boost but runs slower off boost.  I think they(all forced induction car - except for SRT-4) are run 43.5 or 1 bar at idle.

Remember I am trying to compare apples-to-apples and you keep bringing oranges.  

Check what RRFPR can do to 310cc injectors do to a NA V6 that has a centrifugal blower added:

http://www.eclipseforums.org/forum....umid=77

http://www.rippmods.com/forum....njector

My point is that a stock car with NA FPR is not the same as a stock car with turbo FPR.  That is why you have to know the pressure change off idle and use the calculator on RC Engineering website to get an idea of the result.

310cc injectors supporting 412whp?

http://www.rippmods.com/forum....njector

270cc supporting 292hp:

http://www.rippmods.com/forum....njector

[nocutt]

I really don't get your point here Norm? My point is 36lb injectors should not be maxed out @ 30Xhp...that been said, the buick forum has validated a lot of what you need to know...why are you been so skeptical? Have you seen any other independent testing to support the fact that the math you provided in set in stone?
Buick turbos use 1:1 FPR so does the GP's...
the pressure in the rail and in front of the injector is not critical, what the set base psi is...so stock 43.5psi is the constant 'seen' by the injectors...the bases of that test VALIDATES why ppl are running times MANUFACTURERS say they couldn't run?
I guess

[Norm 88GT]

Quote (nocutt @ April 07 2004,16:15)Have you seen any other independent testing to support the fact that the math you provided in set in stone?

How about a national periodical.  Let alone dozen of calculators(via google) that suggest the math.  The math is a model or theory.  They are meant to represent what we witness.  I just happen to match the theory on my first dyno.  None of which match your relatives results.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0 ... Injection/

Look under Accel with a .57 BSFC for hp per injector.  .57 with a 36 lbs. injector is 50hp for each.  I have 6 cylinders times 50 hp = 300.

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm#ACCEL



the pressure in the rail and in front of the injector is not critical, what the set base psi is...so stock 43.5psi is the constant 'seen' by the injectors...the bases of that test VALIDATES why ppl are running times MANUFACTURERS say they couldn't run?
I guess

If you think that the pressure coming through the injector or behind it is not critical to the outlet then you really need to read the .pdf's at the bottom of this link.  The fuel pressure must be maintained regardless of intake pressure.

http://www.kennebell.net/accessories/bo ... tapump.htm
90% injector duty cycle going lean:



94% injector duty cylcle going lean:



This one is injectors going static and rich based on the cursor and the data at the bottom of the pic.  Then as the fuel pump cannot keep up beyond 100% it goes lean





>Have you seen any other independent testing to support >the fact that the math you provided in set in stone?

How about a national periodical.  Let alone dozen of calculators(via google) that suggest the math.  The math is a model or theory.  Would would learn this in econmics.  They are meant to represent what we witness.  I just happen to match the theory on my first dyno.  None of which match your relatives results.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0 ... Injection/

Look under Accel with a .57 BSFC for hp per injector.  .57 with a 36 lbs. injector is 50hp for each.  I have 6 cylinders times 50 hp = 300.

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm#ACCEL



>the pressure in the rail and in front of the injector is not >critical, what the set base psi is...so stock 43.5psi is the >constant 'seen' by the injectors...the bases of that test >VALIDATES why ppl are running times MANUFACTURERS say >they couldn't run?
>I guess

If you think that the pressure coming through the injector or behind it is not critical to the outlet then you really need to read the .pdf's at the bottom of this link.  The fuel pressure must be maintained regardless of intake pressure.

http://www.kennebell.net/accessories/bo ... tapump.htm

>My point is 36lb injectors should not be maxed out @ >30Xhp...that been said, the buick forum has validated a lot >of what you need to know...

The only source you have is turbo buick websites.  The GP link is dead.  Does your world revolve around their technology?  Just because they have the biggest turbo engine around and rear wheel drive and run fast times does not mean they have all the answers.  The DC test that gnjones did just validates what is all over the internet current.

You really have contributed nothing to this thread but said that my injectors should make a certain amount of hp.  You have provided links that are misleading and frankly wrong.  I hope viewers will take your recommendation lightly when it comes to anything other than compressor trims.  You really know nothing with regards to fuel as proved earlier in this thread not knowing the difference between BSFC for na and forced engines.  Nothing has backed up your claim with regards to my application.

[I-GOT-BOOST]

Sounds like a really nice set up you have there Norm!

How much boost are you running?

The 36# injectors should be able to feed this. Are you getting any knock retard, or does it feel like the car falls on its face at high RPM?

The stock fuel pump definitely will not supply enough fuel for what you are doing. Try using a Walbro XP and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. See how that works. You will have to make a few runs and see what your o2 has to say, and adjust the fuel pressure accordingly. This should solve your problem. You might not have to spend $300 for bigger injectors, but if you do need to, you would still have to do the pump, so try that first. Also keep a good eye on your knock count, if your ecm is backing out the timing too much you are losing alot of power. High boost needs high octane. Without an intercooler, 12 lbs is about as much as you can run on run-of-the-mill pump gas before you get too much knock.

[I-GOT-BOOST]

Wow! that was weird! Righ when if hit the post button, your post came up Norm!

Never mind Nocutt, he just likes to tell everyone else that they don't know crap and that their cars suck.

the only car worth anything is his.

I posted the above message before you posted those fuel curves above. You definitely need a pump. Once you go lean, no power, but you already know that. If I can help you at all, let me know. Forced induction is so cool!

[nocutt]

Quote (I-GOT-BOOST @ April 08 2004,00:30)...Never mind Nocutt, he just likes to tell everyone else that they don't know crap and that their cars suck.

the only car worth anything is his...
Ok first of all that was uncalled for? You don't know me and do not know anything about me...keep an opinion like that behind your grill!?!?
Second of all...you are obviously a 'Nuboodie' I have helped numerous ppl on this board...and this sort of crap is the reason I don't deal with ppl online...PPl ask question I help, send very useful info to and turn around and say "the info I gave them is garbage" (has nothing to do with this thread)...do you actually think beretta.net is all I do...
Thirdly the principles of force induction remains the same wherever you go...nothing new, if Norm did not want an opinion about his 'lil issue' he wouldn't have posted...you have said the same thing I said...where did I mention anything about what you posted...
You are A TOOL!...now I all wound up...

[Norm 88GT]

Quote (I-GOT-BOOST @ April 08 2004,00:26)Sounds like a really nice set up you have there Norm!

How much boost are you running?

The 36# injectors should be able to feed this. Are you getting any knock retard, or does it feel like the car falls on its face at high RPM?

The stock fuel pump definitely will not supply enough fuel for what you are doing. Try using a Walbro XP and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. See how that works. You will have to make a few runs and see what your o2 has to say, and adjust the fuel pressure accordingly. This should solve your problem. You might not have to spend $300 for bigger injectors, but if you do need to, you would still have to do the pump, so try that first. Also keep a good eye on your knock count, if your ecm is backing out the timing too much you are losing alot of power. High boost needs high octane. Without an intercooler, 12 lbs is about as much as you can run on run-of-the-mill pump gas before you get too much knock.
I-GOT-BOOST, I knew I was getting close to the pumps limits but since no one really knows I just kept it to find out exactly where the limits our so others will not have to waste time doing the same.  If someone wants to put a forced induction setup on their V6 this will give them insight.

10 psi and no ESC with the programmable ECU.  Just like Rex's setup.  I'd love to see someone take the stock ECU and build upon it with stock timing and a FPR and make a nice daily driver that could run in the 14's.

Your right about IC and boost.  I see 15F increase on a 4th gear run on the dyno.  With octane and timing adjustment I am running more timing than the stock computer so it runs better off boost than a stock Beretta.

New pump on order!

[Norm 88GT]

Quote (nocutt @ April 08 2004,09:26)Quote (I-GOT-BOOST @ April 08 2004,00:30)...Never mind Nocutt, he just likes to tell everyone else that they don't know crap and that their cars suck.

the only car worth anything is his...
Ok first of all that was uncalled for? You don't know me and do not know anything about me...keep an opinion like that behind your grill!?!?
Second of all...you are obviously a 'Nuboodie' I have helped numerous ppl on this board...and this sort of crap is the reason I don't deal with ppl online...PPl ask question I help, send very useful info to and turn around and say "the info I gave them is garbage" (has nothing to do with this thread)...do you actually think beretta.net is all I do...
Thirdly the principles of force induction remains the same wherever you go...nothing new, if Norm did not want an opinion about his 'lil issue' he wouldn't have posted...you have said the same thing I said...where did I mention anything about what you posted...
You are A TOOL!...now I all wound up...
You post are on a bunch of forums for the last couple of years.  Somebody asks you a direct question about your install, as I refuted your recommended hp/injector size suggestion, and you beat around the bush saying that you did allot of things pertaining to installattion but not answering the question.  If you don't know don't post like you do.  I did not assemble or install my engine and I am not going to say I did.  Curtis Walker puts it in big print on his webpage he did everything except for the exhaust.  I did the research to do a plug-n-play programmable ECU that anyone now can do the same thing as the vendor had not done it before.  I did all the tuning and use the dyno to back it up.  Even the dyno operator, who was GM engineer and contracted by the SCCA to dyno the winning cars, says that he was impressed with the first pull and initial drivibility.  He looked at the timing and A/F and said he had nothing to offer for a daily driver on pump gas.  Not to say there is not more power available and I know everything.

I put 172/202 at the wheels on ran 14.4 @ 97 MPH on a slipping stock clutch.  That is slightly slower than your low 14's @ 99 MPH(which my '99 Regal GS with ran 13.6 with pulley and exhaust).  Now I make 210/235 at the wheels...you do the math.  And we know either to exhaust flow or fueling it will only go up as the numbers are very uncharacteristic to a centrifugal style blower.

Aside from the swap, which someone makes the brackets and puts the motor in, I really don't think L-body are truly inspired aside from the show factor of having a bigger engine.  There are more and more forced 60 degree V6s recently than 90 degree since .  Not to say when we're down almost a half liter in displacement that were going to keep up to a tuned 90 degree.

If all I have is a "lil issue" then why can't you answer it?  Case in point!