Supercharged beretta v6 dynoed

[mcgavinz26]

I know its been said, but get a fuel pump.  36#ers are not maxed out, no question about that.  I say check out this place:
www.autoperformanceengineering.com

(This is just taken from my website)
The above website lists fuel pumps of different sizes for many vehicles. The pump they sell for the '86 Fiero with a 2.8 will work on a '94 Beretta with a 3100. I finally got it installed last night and put about 25 miles on it with no problems. I purchased the 255 pump. It is not noticably louder at all. The pump is actually a GM universal unit I think, but either way, this same pump worked on my car and my friends 2000 Blazer, so it definitely is somewhat universal.

To install it I had to use the rubber sleeve they supplied with the new pump to make it fit in the plastic fuel pump housing because the pump itself was slightly larger. I also had to shave off a very small amount of plastic at the bottom of the plastic housing where the filter connects to the bottom of the pump through the housing. It originally had an 8 type of shape, and when I was done it was shaped more like a 0. You would have no problem figuring out what I am talking about if you were in the process of changing the pump. All I used was a razor blade.

Cost was $97 total and it arrived 3 days after I placed the order without any special shipping.

http://www.angelfire.com/super/ghettore ... er2003.htm

[nocutt]

Ok the proverbial 'cat is out of the bag'...
Where do I start? Forgive me folks...I come online to relax, (3 kids, Full time Student, full time job)..I really don't need this Norm?
Three ppl have said the same thing, you aren't maxing the freaking 36lb injectors...why don't you hang on their&*$%&(^^&*
I really don't think this is about the injectors anymore? The trend did not occur to me till when a member on the other board actually brought something to my attention...you have been going into the grave yard posting "WESTCOAST FIERO BUILT HIS ENGINE" Here is Westcoastfieros number 310-305-4111, ask how many times am there still wrenching on my car..adding pieces taking off pieces...what do you think I have $60/hr to pay to do the swap, spec a turbo, turbocharge the car oh yes and tune it? I have my own trial & tribulation buddy, did I mention I am a full time student, employed full time...you need to take a step back for a few secs...get that chip of your shoulder youngster!?!?...I have not rained on your parade, I hope that is not what your crusade is about...are we still talking about the injectors?
To the day, I have been doing this 7yrs STRONG, do you know how many emails I have received in all this years? Now count how many berettas have 3800's in them? The ones you can count, 50% have gotten help from me...I am sure you can count this folks on one hand...if I told you I have received more than 500 emails ranging from Fbodies to Wbodies, yes it has become a trivial...'been there done that bought the t-shirt', If you have been under a rock for the past couple of years...you will know I have never once denounced anyone except folks like you who come with "S" written on their chest, what you made 235hp to the wheels and you think that is power...oh I am impressed, but when you come across like an @ss then who cares...I ran 14.2s @ 99mph with 4.5psi of pk boost, 2.4x 60' with 91 octane and a gang of KR...guess what? My times? more important to me...not you? Oh my madza 323X ran 13.2 so? you do not know what I have nor do I care, you have done your home work granted, but you are still wayyyy behind on the learning curve BUDDY...I know what this car can run.
What does 60 and 90 degree engine have to do with anything? Please miss me with that stupid debate...leave it @ club 60 degree...not here? When I was preaching 3.4 and better yet 3.8 were were you?, where were you and your other crony? Go back into the archives...dig into the graveyard as you have a mission to debunk my "so called credibility" show me an ounce of what you have said to be true..."I beat around the bush" what am I beating around the bush for? Are we still talking about your basic math and this stupid injector? please a moderator should hurry and locked this stupid thread...do me a muthalovin favor, stay out of my thread if you do not have something important to add...and I sure will stay the heck off yours!!
BTW you did have a 'lil-issue', if it were a big issue you would probably be picking the pieces...shalom!!

[Norm 88GT]

Thanks Scott!

nocutt, people like Scott and a few others on this forum threw out ideas like bigger exhaust and higher flow fuel pump.  We're just here venturing into new territory as 16 year old FWD cars are not at the top of the list when it comes to tuner cars.  If they are heading down a similar path they will at least know what road block is next as most of us use our cars as daily drivers and cannot be down for years.  Unlike you that just flat say I am wrong in my injectors maxing out and not looking at other sources for the inconsistancies.  The datalogs are not enough?


Just saw it in a post by "West Coast Fiero" said they built it.  So you assisted in the swap and build up?  Or you built it?

http://www.fiero.nl/forum....17.html

Someone else has questioned "your" work:

http://www.corsicas.com/forums....&st=135

Looks as of last year your still the only one picture of a 3800 in an L-body.  If there are so many 3800 Berettas you should be able to find at least some links to them...right?

The only thing I questioned is your links which you provided.  The injector calculator link burst the bubble and matched nothing that I found while searching and experience.  To back our lack of fuel knowledge as I was in a similar boat until I did the first dyno.  I really got to understand the when they say .5 BSFC for NA and .6 for forced.  And actually got pretty close to the .6(.57) if I had not had more timing advance than what is usually expected for forced engines.

Continue to bring new ideas and thoughts to the forum as they do sometimes require us to play devil's advocate and finding the real truth.  With the dialog, sometimes too lengthy, hopefully we will not have any of us picking up the pieces.

Spend some time with the kids this Easter weekend!

Have a good holiday!

[nocutt]

[quote nocutt]something is wrong with math Norm?!? 36lb injectors should theorectically net you almost 400+ hp before been maxed, this is using 43psi static pressure...
@ what engiine speed & psi boost? [/quote]
that is what I posted...

[quote mcgavinz26]Something is definitely not right there, hopefully its just the exhaust and thats all.  You should get one of the electronic cutouts.  I have heard quite a bit of good stuff about them.  210 at the wheels is still a quick car though.[/quote]

that is what scott posted...why is my post not helpful? Did you even bother to answer the question? I admit I don't know your setup of head, maybe all that posted knew exactly what to find...I asked very specific questions and you retorted by been defensive...and now you are bringing more graveyard post!?!? LIKE I HAVE SAID A MILLION TIMES AND FROM DAY ONE...WESTCOASTFIERO HELPED PUT THIS TOGETHER, do you want me to show the first ever thread from GM FWD performance back in the day? So because Eric from westcoastfiero.com (no pun intended) decides to get glorified you automatically made your own conclusions...on what grounds? Why don't you look for post about Eric and see what dimensions of choas he created before been terminated, while you are here 'knitpicking'...I sure am glad I never saw that post...besides the point, I hope you keep on going on your little crusade...don' t forget to go to turbobuick.com. LS1.com. grandamgt.com, firebirdv6.com, mymonte.com. and dig up some more...it is obvious you have time on your hands to burn...maybe if you remove that "S" from your chest you would have made a better judgment of how innocent my questions where but like I said...you where patiently waiting...lol!! This is muthaloving hilarious, you even bring a post from corsicas.com...where is tyre now?
Anywayz this is my last post and correspondence to this thread, I don't even know why the thread is still opened..I think I get it though?!?
Thank you very much it has been fun...I will keep my mods to myself, it's obvious it has a very profound and negative impact on you...as a matter of fact...

[Norm 88GT]

5500 rpms was almost 11 psi.  Check out the sig.  Remember it is centrifugal blower so the boost is always changing with rpms.  Not a big deal haveing no control boost as I have 5psi @ peak torque, which a bit more tranny friend than a turbo.

You provided a link to a injector calculator that did not take into consideration the difference between NA and forced.  I have talked to Scott about a month and half before the dyno about the fuel pump.  Had my fuel guage ready on the dyno but was making computer changes and found 5whp/wtrq on a hot engine.  With the Powerdyne kit, which was orginally designed for a '97-'99 350ci Vortec V8, came an inline fuel pump.  I have every thing to install it but got to thinking that the inline pump might conflict with the small stock pump.  Scott was the first that I knew of that swapped the bigger pump.  Rex, and I think Stencil, still run the stock pump on their Q4s and make more power with a smaller motor.  Adding 100hp and 100trq over a stock 3.1 does create it challenges.  Think you have that much over a stock 3800II NA?

You still have contributed nothing to this thread but are busy defending yourself.  I have provided dyno charts(have you?), datalogs showing injector duty cycle(yourself?) and links to injector calculators that are models of what to expect(?).

Thanks for the links though. ÂÂÂ

Happy Easter!

[mcgavinz26]

They still run stock pumps?  Thats just wrong.  The pump should be the first thing upgraded when you go over a 40% increase in power I say, if not sooner.  The pumps are cheap and do not effect anything if you don't even need the fuel (like lowering your mpg).  

You guys need to chill.

Your arguing reminds me very much of a chevy guy and a ford guy yelling about which is better, even though God herself knows Chevy is better.  

You both should know by now that no 2 car guys can ever agree about everything.  Maybe most things, but never All things.  You just have to let some things slide sometimes.  There is always a right way, and then everyone elses personal way.  I ran a 14.2 with a slipping tranny and not leaning out with my stock injectors.  Were they on fully duty cycle.... I dont know, but I did have 80psi of fuel pressure.  I could have gone up to 100 psi and the pump was ready for it.  The right way in my mind would have been to get 30+# injectors and do some ECM tuning.... but the money and time and worthiness wasn't there, so I mcGaviredN-rigged the system, it drove.

Maybe in some sense of the words, you could say the injectors are maxed out.  Your car stock was rated for 135?hp.  Now you have 210whp... even with the 36#s, I'd be surprised if your pump wasn't the issue here.  I'm not even sure if thats being argued about anymore though.  The beer has taken over my mind for right now.

FYI: Secondary inline pumps are not very highly recommended.  They are like on an equally ghetto scale (only slightly rigged) as my vortech SFMU, its a band-aid on the real issue.  Sell the secondary inline on ebay and buy the in-tank pump.

[Norm 88GT]

You were probably running injectors static, ie wideopen, they flow maximum.  So it was probably rich at wot.  Running AFPR?  If so that really scews the injector rating as the inj. was rated at stock pressures.  I perfer to run stock pressures for consistency.  But it worked for you!  

Wideband O2 will be the judge after the pump is installed.  Stay tuned...

There a number of companies that sell inline pumps with their aftermarket kits including fpr.  Guess what?  They are still in business.  Rippmods, which make dodge/mitsu 3.0V6 sc kits using a vortec sc, are making close to 400whp with 310cc injectors.  How do they do it?  FPR!

Remembering what my VE tables looked, my numbers were all over the place.  But they were consistant & repeatable.  That was the key for me.

[rweatherford]

I have not had time to follow this thread well.  The last Turbo magazine had a test on fuel pumps.  There is a point on every pump where more fuel pressure leads to less flow and less HP capacity.  You have to find the spot where that is, but pretty much every pump made, flows more fuel with less pressure.

A stock fuel pump might flow more fuel at low pressure than a high performance one at high pressure.

[Norm 88GT]

Rex, I read that article too.  I really did not take much from it as most of the pumps were test of the factory or replacement for popular cars.  KenneBell mentioned they take the whole fuel system out of a car to run tests.  They said the fuel line is usually the biggest restriction where you'd think the inline filter would be.

[spacecadetz26]

I think for alot of people pictures or seeing in person tells all. I have on occasion called BS on peoples work, especially if there is no photographic proof. You can piss alot of people off if you do this but i feel it is necessary to do sometimes to cut through the bull.  
Since I have seen Norm's car in person and at the track I can vouch for him. Nocutt on the other hand, lives all the way in California and hardly anyone besides Fiero people can vouch for his car. I have a friend (fiero owner) that went to CA last year and actually did see Nocutts Beretta, near West Coast Fiero. I think more exposure is what you need to actually have a claim to fame.
Saying I own a 3800 Turbo Beretta and here's a pic of it isn't all you need nowdays, it needs to be fast, clean and well put together to get everyone's attention, have your car put in a magazine if you think its that damn good. I would like everyone to make a show car that can run 13's and we can live in a perfect world. Are you that ugly that you cant take a photo of yourself next to your car?

I've seen Tyre Danielly's work. I can say he can do some oddball engine swaps, but as far as performance after what happened last year with the fake timeslip saying his x-11 ran 12's with a stock 3800 SC thats quite far fetched. he totally lost his credibility with me, I find it hard to believe even photos sometimes, even though I know another person that is quite well known that has worked hand in hand with Tyre.
I've just gotten pretty indepth with the car performance/tuning thing in the last couple of months. Before this year, I really didnt have any performance knowledge besides slapping some edelbrock parts on my sbc. I'm still learning as well when it comes to somethings, mastering the art of "high performance tuning" can differ from the "school" you came from. one shops bible is another shop's table prop so to speak. How do you really know who is right anyways? It usually ends up being who can get down the strip fastest when it comes down to it. Or whoever's checking account is drawing the most interest.

if anyone has any problems with anything i say or have said please take this opportunity to contact me through AIM.
my .02

[mcgavinz26]

The things that nocutts said over the years prove that he has useful input, which as far as the board is concerned, thats what matters above all.  He said he ran 14.something, which is even more reason to beleive hes for real.  Having the guts to post a time that slow on a car with so much more potential shows he's not posting crap.

This is getting a little-lot off topic as usual.  Both of these guys are pretty talented and provide usefull information.  

If anyone wants to get back on topic and tell Norm that his car is cool, I think thats the way to go with this topic, no more bickering.

[z284pwr]

Quote (mcgavinz26 @ April 13 2004,17:26)If anyone wants to get back on topic and tell Norm that his car is cool, I think thats the way to go with this topic, no more bickering.
I'll get back on topic then....

I think his car is a great accomplishment, his setup is the only one on here that closely resembles mine in engine build wise and electronics.  Norm was nice enough to email me his F.A.S.T timing map.  On that subject, I don't suppose you could mail me your timing map again if you've made any updates to see what I have in comparison, from what I remember the one before has like 30* advance under boost compared to the 28*.  Why is the timing so high BTW?  I asked around on the 60DegreeV6 forums and they were all saying that 28

[Guest]

Quote (Norm 88GT @ April 04 2004,10:17)I just dynoed and got 210whp/238wtrq at the wheels.
My 2" crushed-bent exhaust and Midas catylitc
converter is killing the top end as the engine is
maxing out the 36 lbs. injectors.  85% duty cycle on
the injectors according to the math should be right at
300hp flywheel.  The engine is cosuming the fuel but
cannot put the power down due to the corked exhaust.
ÂÂÂ
Timing was at 28 degrees and the air-fuel ratio was
holding 12.5:1.
ÂÂÂ
100cpi metal cat along with a true 2.5" should be
interesting to see what it rewards as power starts to level off around 4K RPMs.

Here is a comparison of Stencil(NOS) and Rex(Turbo) from BerettaFest '03(only people that I have data from on a Dynojet) and myself this past week.


I have a question how are you losing 90 hp through the drivetrain already? i pulled 205hp with just a 3.4 pulley and reative filter slaped on there. i also pulled like 270wtrq at the wheels. My down pipe might as well been a corked becuase it was a big peace of junk. i broke both my front mounts my knock sensors where going crazy and the car was over heating??? You sure your are at 300???the numbers seem to be kinda off or maybe i'm just to drunk  

[Guest]

He never SAID he was at 300 crank hp (probably more like 245-250).............he said he had the INJECTORS for 300hp, and was BURNING THE FUEL to do it, but his exhaust was killing him.............especially at high revs.

Seriously....how often do you see a centrifigal blower run out of power at high revs?

Not very often..............

[Guest]

bigbuls clam down geez dont be taking it out on keith he is probley the one of the first one who put a 3800sc in to beretta so I do know what keith knows when he is talking about.