Possible Northstar V8

[JeffD]

I was not criticizing your build, I actually admire it. what I AM asking is this: do you feel that because you have pushed the 3400 w/ nitrous and have massaged it to make more power that now it will no longer be as reliable as a stock engine?

[3X00-Modified]

do you feel that because you have pushed the 3400 w/ nitrous and have massaged it to make more power that now it will no longer be as reliable as a stock engine?

I do not feel that my engine is no longer as reliable because of the way I've done my modifications. I have not gone way beyond what the setup can handle so I don't expect things to fail. I also keep tabs on the tune which is very important. This is the main reason why I continue and will continue to drive my car to every Bfest I attend. I don't want to build something that I will not trust making a trip like that, If I feel that one or any of my modifications will sacrifice it's ability to drive then I will not do it, I'm not out to build a garage/trailer/show queen.

Well, till you shatter the 4t60e under stress, why change it? lol

Well that is the idea, but at the same time if I can't get it to shift quickly then that's another issue that can be fixed easier with a trans that has more aftermarket regarding shift kits, valve body modifications, and electronic shift pressure control. And to clarify my issue so it's not confused with the reliability comments above, I have yet to break the trans under usage... I'm simply having trouble with it shifting when the engine is running on nitrous going down the strip, and I've been told that could have been simply due to me not running 1 to 1 1/2 quarts over full on the trans and starving the pump.

I guess in the end my point in this is you will see very interesting and unique engine swap ideas posted on this board and they will sound very interested in completing it and people will contribute ideas and info to them and then that person will just drop the ball completely when they realize how much work there is, so I wanted to make sure this individual is clearly aware of what would have to be done and personally I don't feel that the payoff is that great for the amount of work, unless he's just trying to build a unique show piece, Power wise I feel it can be accomplished much easier and still have a reliable vehicle in the end.

Barry is the only RWD swap thats still going on this forum and thats something similar to this, many want to rwd swap and then the interest dies quickly. Norm was going to RWD swap his old supercharged GT but got tired of it when he realized how much had to be done to fit what he wanted, he already had the whole Vette running gear under it so talk about abandoning a project with quite a bit invested.

[Barry]

Yeah you gotta give it time. It's easy to lose motivation when you see how much work is ahead of you and you don't have all the answers in your head.

Then I take a week off, drift the crap out of my BMW, and realize why I need to get my beretta done.

[LOLVTEC]

Barry you're converting a Beretta to RWD??? Build thread?

[LX9Power]

Barry you're converting a Beretta to RWD??? Build thread?

Dude where have you been!????!

http://www.beretta.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8329

[3X00-Modified]

Cam is a little slow...

[Rettax3]

Pthbthbpthba! (That is the sound of me biting my tongue.)

Okay, until I get it back together and back on the road, I really can't say too much. But, as the current owner of the only N* Beretta I've ever seen, I can say a little...

The car is a teal Indy, original 5-speed digital car. When I first saw it, the builder had it put together well enough I thought is was stock at first. I wasn't too into Berettas back then, but it was a decent build-job. Some years later, it has fallen into serious disrepair from lack of use and other issues. I got the car in trade, and it seriously needs some work to be back on the road. Technically, it is not a true N*, because it is the Aurora L47 4.0L, like Weba mentioned (he is my Beretta hero, have I mentioned that yet?), but it is still a 5-speed.

For anyone interested in the facts on this, here is a quick run-down of what you would be facing to implant one of these monsters:

-Custom engine-mounts. Like my 3800-II SC -powered GTU, there isn't much wiggle-room in the bay for the engine, so solid mounts might be the only practical solution, which means vibration. The N*s and the 3800s are smooth engines, so it can be tolerable, but it won't have the comfort of stock. Although I proved that the 3800 can be successfully mounted in a Beretta without modifying the frame of the car or needing a welder, the complexity of the N* setup probably requires at least a little of both -at least a few holes drilled into the car and some custom brackets made. I'm still building better ones for my N* Indy that will actually hold up, though probably not look so stock, and I wouldn't want to attempt that without a welder.

-The engine is too long to fit properly in a Beretta. The crankshaft pulley rides UNDER the frame-rail, so you loose power-steering, unless you can figure a way around that (my idea is to use a Quad-4 power steering pump, which has the tiny driven pulley designed to come off of a slow-turning cam, and build a bracket to run it with the cam-driven water-pump. I would then use a fourth-gen Camaro remote reservoir due to space restrictions. I don't know if this will actually work though, so you might have to loose power steering altogether.) A/C and alternator are fine, but you have to carve a small notch into the vertical frame-bracket that comes down to the outside of the radiator core-support -not a big deal, but it is still a mod you have to do. You also need to cool the alternator with an electric fan (mine has a Fiero distributor/alternator cooling fan, it is a small unit designed to push air through tubes to remote accessories) because the front cooling vane-fan will not fit unless you hack the heck out of the Beretta.

-The stock serpentine belt-tensioner will no longer fit or be useful, so build a new one. If that doesn't scare you away, you don't know what I'm talking about.

-The transmission shifts a little too far to the left, and there is a lip underneath the Beretta that needs to be bent slightly outward if you ever want to replace the clutch again. Also, the entire engine and transmission has to be dropped to separate the two, so maintenance will be more complicated. The alternator is also harder to get to. Custom CVs don't seem to be needed, but there may be a little binding on the left, the builder wasn't sure if they were just bad or not. Custom mounts are probably needed here too, I don't think stock ones work unless modified.

-The N* oil-pan will not clear the Beretta's right-side sub-frame. Mine has a tiny notch cut out of the sub-frame, and a modified oil-pan. My oil-pan is also cracked, which was the main reason the car was parked, and I don't have the facilities to weld aluminum anymore, so I will eventually build a new pan out of steel. Again, run away! Run away!

-The standard Beretta radiator may or may not be enough for the N* -mine has a 3-core copper job that was used in the special turbo Grand Prix, it is narrower and thicker. The radiator cap is conveniently next to the engine's oil-fill cap, too. But try to find one of those radiators new now...

-Expect the standard issues of radiator hoses, heater hoses, and A/C lines (if applicable) -these aren't too bad though. Remember you will also need a custom exhaust system built for the car.

-Wiring... If this intimidates you, at least you know it won't be like plugging in your TV set. This is about the same as the wiring-job I had to do for my 3800, which was time consuming, but otherwise not too bad, but I am comfortable with wiring. Get ahold of complete schematics for both donor and Beretta before contemplating this. Or, just throw money at it and have Megasquirt or some other do the work for you, no one will laugh, I promise!

-If you have an older Beretta with the huge upper tranny-mount post on the left, you will need to cut that down and build a new mount or reverse the intake plenum so the throttle-body and MAF can clear.

...And if you want a manual tranny...

-You will need to build a custom jackshaft (intermediate shaft from the transmission to the right CV joint) support bracket.

-The N*-family mounts the starter on top, between the cylinder banks, so the transmission will need modification.

-N*s did not come from the factory with manual transmissions, so the flywheel is expensive and not many people make them. When my car was built, apparently NO ONE produced N* flywheels for sale, so the original builder made one for the car.

-Shift-cables interfere with the engine, so a new bracket will need to be fabricated.

Congratulations! That is a simple project, isn't it? NO, it isn't. Is it worth while? Only you can answer that for yourself. Personally, I think if you can afford to have your car taken apart for several months, are comfortable with the wiring and the fabrication and the cost, and just really want an oddball V-8 Beretta, then yeah, maybe it is worth it. But it certainly isn't easy, and building a healthy V-6 or Quad-powered Beretta that will crank-out the 240-300 HP that the older members of the N* family is rated at would be faster and maybe cheaper. But to each their own, so pick what you want and pay your fees, just have fun with it or you did it wrong.

[MY91GT(Z)]

i still wanna see pix of this indy you have rettax as you have some quite unique berettas to say the least

[Rettax3]

I only have the old pics of this, from when 'GTiIndy' owned it, when it was being taken apart for rebuild. Actually, it looks worse in the pictures than it did in real life, but yeah, the car won't win any beauty contests right now.
The body was straight, and the only rust was minor surface-rust where the paint had been peeled-off for too long. He said he saved this car from the scrapper, it was already in the junkyard ready to have the catalytic converter removed, and fuel-tank punctured when he saw it, and talked them into letting him buy it for like $300 or $400, and that was more than a couple of years ago, too.
Unfortunately, when I got it and towed it off, some bad things happened to it... He had warned me that the car had been partially disassembled, but I didn't realize the front hub-nuts were off, so when I rolled it back from the trailer, the front wheel (driver's side) came off with the outer hub, and crunched the fender. Then, the insane winds we have at my house blew the top ten feet off of a seventy-foot-tall pine and hurled it almost thirty feet to land on the back of the Indy, where it dented the quarter-panel next to the trunk-lid.

Darn tree. You are OFF my arbor-day greeting card list!

Amazingly, there was no other damage, even to my '89 Camaro RS Police Special 350.

The snow was good for something here after all

I really feel bad about the slight beating that car has taken since coming into my possession, but I'll make it up to her one day...

Indy, a lump of compressed carbon in the rough

L47 in the Indy

[jwevans1024]

Hello, I'm new to this site but not new to the vehicles and this post intrigued me. First, I agree with the majority, the Northstar V8 would be a royal pain in the a$$ to swap to say the least. The thing literally sits strut tower to strut tower and fire wall to core support in a D-body Cadillac.

As for reliable, I worked for Cadillac and while the Northstar is a nice engine, I'd hardly call it reliable. Between the lower case halves leaking oil, the oil rings seizing and causing oil burning, The ridiculous intake manifold that sits behind and seals itself to a metal bracket (point is that gasket always leaks), the coil towers that go bad causing misfires, the dual crank sensors where WHEN one fails you have to replace them both. It's just a WAY over complicated engine and it's a behemoth.

There are so many smaller engines that are unique and produce just as much, if not more power. Here are some examples, an LSJ supercharged Ecotec (with a decent stage kit will produce over 300 crank horsepower and go for about 200,000 miles trouble free), an LX9 3500 V6 well built (there are several people on 60degreeV6 making 275 WHP with just a street/strip cam, ported upper end and full tube headers), a 3800 SII S/C would be really nice and anyone who has seen a GP GTP modded, knows full well how easy it is to make that car (which weighs about 300 lbs more than a Beretta) run an 11 second 1/4 mile. For those who dislike pushrods and want their cams in the cylinder head and not the block, try swapping in an LQ1 3.4 DOHC V6. There are several W-body people and a couple of Fiero's that are running custom turbo setups on this engine. With 7psi boost they are pulling 325 WHP, this was on multiple different vehicles. Point is, GM dropped the Northstar because it was way too expensive to build, didn't get good gas mileage, took up too much room and in non VVT form had up to 15 horsepower less than a direct injected 3.6 liter V6. Hey, there's another swap option!

And 3x00-modified, instead of trying to wire up a 4T65E, have you considered just buying the guts for one and swapping it in to your 60? As far as I know, the case that holds the clutches and planetaries is pretty much the same between the 60 and the 65. Also bear this in mind, there are Grand Am owners running full turbo setups on a 4T45E and that's a way weaker tranny than the 60! Oh, and if you do decide to use a 65, the mounting points are identical.

[jwevans1024]

Correction on my last post I meant Cadillac K-body not D-body.

[3X00-Modified]

65e valve body is completely different and will not line up with any hydraulic lines or the main case of the 60e so were the housing is similar for the 3rd gear only clutch it wouldn't do me any good. I already have a Raybestos Z-pak for a 65e that I almost used last year but most of my issues is not having enough control over the shift pressures and times which in a 65e is completely electronic controlled. I also feel there are more clutch choices for 1st and 2nd gear in a 65e... I can only get stage 1 stuff from Raybestos or Alto which yes right now has been holding up fine, hence me still sticking with it. Also there are a few different LSD's out there for the 65e and the diff is a bit larger.

And I don't know where you've read 275whp with a street and strip cam and ported intakes and headers... The only guy to put down 275 with a LX9 was Superdave and his cam was FAR from a street and strip cam... He also had fully custom longtube headers and a 5-speed.

[jwevans1024]

My apologies, I misquoted. It was superdave but I combined two different posts from one thread. He told me in one post to use a street/strip cam in a 3500 instead of another idea I had, then told me later on his 3500 had 275 horse with what he called a "big" cam. My mistake.

As for the 60 vs. the 65, I knew the valve bodies were different, I just didn't know how far. Oh well, 65 it is then! You definitely are better off, they do make a lot of parts for that trans and it accelerates pretty well even compared to a manual. The other cool thing is a 65 can have up to three overall final drives. You have two final drive choices, 3.05 and 3.29 and depending on what chain drive/driven gear setup you use (35/35 teeth or 37/33 teeth) with the diffs your effective final drive can either be 2.93, 3.05 or 3.29!

[3X00-Modified]

There are WAY more combinations that that... Trust me I've done quite a bit of my homework on these transmissions. I'm currently running a 3.69FDR in the 60e Started out playing with the 3.42 and it just wasn't enough... May go back there some day if I feel I get too much wheel spin with my new plans.

With 2.86 diff:
Use 35/35 gears to end up with 2.86:1 gears
Use 37/33 gears to end up with 2.55:1 gears
Use 33/37 gears to end up with 3.21:1 gears

With 3.05 diff:
Use 35/35 to end up with 3.05:1
Use 37/33 to end up with 2.72:1
Use 33/37 to end up with 3.42:1

With 3.29 diff:
35/35 gears give 3.29:1
37/33 gears give 2.93:1
33/37 gears give 3.69:1

[1990BerettaGTZ2.3L]

Ya but if you use a non v8 it'll never sound like a v8 if I can get a N* goin it's gonna be wicked with headers and probably gonna leave them uncapped sometimes and go stir up the neighbor hood and when the exhaust is on its the perfect sleeper

Hello, I'm new to this site but not new to the vehicles and this post intrigued me. First, I agree with the majority, the Northstar V8 would be a royal pain in the a$$ to swap to say the least. The thing literally sits strut tower to strut tower and fire wall to core support in a D-body Cadillac.

As for reliable, I worked for Cadillac and while the Northstar is a nice engine, I'd hardly call it reliable. Between the lower case halves leaking oil, the oil rings seizing and causing oil burning, The ridiculous intake manifold that sits behind and seals itself to a metal bracket (point is that gasket always leaks), the coil towers that go bad causing misfires, the dual crank sensors where WHEN one fails you have to replace them both. It's just a WAY over complicated engine and it's a behemoth.

There are so many smaller engines that are unique and produce just as much, if not more power. Here are some examples, an LSJ supercharged Ecotec (with a decent stage kit will produce over 300 crank horsepower and go for about 200,000 miles trouble free), an LX9 3500 V6 well built (there are several people on 60degreeV6 making 275 WHP with just a street/strip cam, ported upper end and full tube headers), a 3800 SII S/C would be really nice and anyone who has seen a GP GTP modded, knows full well how easy it is to make that car (which weighs about 300 lbs more than a Beretta) run an 11 second 1/4 mile. For those who dislike pushrods and want their cams in the cylinder head and not the block, try swapping in an LQ1 3.4 DOHC V6. There are several W-body people and a couple of Fiero's that are running custom turbo setups on this engine. With 7psi boost they are pulling 325 WHP, this was on multiple different vehicles. Point is, GM dropped the Northstar because it was way too expensive to build, didn't get good gas mileage, took up too much room and in non VVT form had up to 15 horsepower less than a direct injected 3.6 liter V6. Hey, there's another swap option!

And 3x00-modified, instead of trying to wire up a 4T65E, have you considered just buying the guts for one and swapping it in to your 60? As far as I know, the case that holds the clutches and planetaries is pretty much the same between the 60 and the 65. Also bear this in mind, there are Grand Am owners running full turbo setups on a 4T45E and that's a way weaker tranny than the 60! Oh, and if you do decide to use a 65, the mounting points are identical.