Transmission question to confirm this?

[zBusterCB87]

Hey all,

I want to confirm that this is the way it is:

The 88-89 Beretta/Corsica 2.8L v6 engine had an automatic transmission 3 spd.

The 96 Beretta 3100 v6 engine had an automatic transmission 4 speed (OD).

Does the 88-89 gearing on the first three gears the same as the 96 transmission?

I'm not sure, from what I have observed, the 88-89 has higher revving at its first three gears than the 96 beretta...
Am I correct?

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Also, if that is the case, How easy do you think it is to take the 3 speed auto and put it in place of the 4 speed auto?
All there is is the kick back cable and torque converter wires, I do not see much else...

Oh and the shifter is different, I'd have to go from P-R-N-OD-D-L to P-R-N-D-2-1
That should not be to hard, all I need is to not let the ECM engage the torque converter when its in 2 and 1...?
(I'm guessing its just a simple clipping of a signal wire...?)

The 96 is OBD1 the 88-89 is OBD1

Thanks, I just want to make sure of all this before I make a decision to try it or not...

For me the kick back cable would the the most difficult to attach, I have the older style throttle body that I can use for parts, or the thing itself, idk yet...

[beretta]

far as i know the 4 speed wont work unless you change the ecm and wiring.. the 4 speed is electronic shift and goes by rpm and other factors..

If you do convert to the 4 speed i think you would be better off swaping in a obd1.5 or obd2 computer to make it work properly..

i have a dash harness and ecm from a 94 obd1.5.. unfortunately i figured its not worth pulling the engine harness and i kinda cut the crap out of it. not sure if the transmission runs off a separate modual if you can piggy back them to the existing ecm or not..
maybe you can get a chip for the older obd1 computer for the 4 speed.. or just put a 5 speed in it..

[zBusterCB87]

Thabks for the reply,
I actually have the 88 Trans in the grage and I have the stock 96 brretta, I think I said it backwards, ... Oops.

I'm considering putting the 3 speed auto from the 88 Beretta and putting it in my 96 Beretta.
But I only want to do this if the 88 Trans will give me more torque off the line...lol

I'd put a manual in my 96, but I already have that manual for a different Beretta that needs a replacement due to a specific problem that was encountered that broke something...

[beretta]

i know what you mean about the 96 trany.. i have a 88 5 speed and a 96 auto..

The auto is very lazy off the line but in top end it goes..

i have done a few small things to my 96 that helps a little.. a 3400 throttle body, cold air intake. aftermarket catalytic converter deleted the resonator on the exhaust, aftermarket muffler. all helps with the flow, feels a bit faster off the line then it did stock. i done one thing at a time, and each thing i done felt a little better, even just cutting off the resonator you could feel a bit more power there on acceleration.

If it wasnt for the fact my gf drives the 96 it would get a 5 speed swap..

If you wanted to keep a 4 speed but have more power taking off.. find a lumina trany and throw that in there, or simular car.. unless your good with changing internal parts and change the final drive gear...

the lumina has a little better final drive for getting off the line in the larger car, my gf's 99 lumina 3100 4 speed revs about 2200 rpm doing 100 KM/h and my 96 Z26 runs about 1500-1600 rpm at the same speed.

i think that would be a direct bolt in and should shift fine without changing anything..
when you can do 140 KM/h using only 2nd gear i would say that would make it very lazy off the line. if im hard on the throttle i think it shifts from 1st to 2nd about 70 km/h thats a pretty long 1st gear in these tranys..

i would think with the 3 speed even if you did make it work, you would be always looking for another gear as it would rev pretty high on the highway.. i would think..

[zBusterCB87]

Nice information,

I did notice that the 96 beretta with the auto trans will pick up on acceleration with the higher RPM.
I was just wondering if the 88 beretta auto trans has lower gears, I could look and see if the first three gears swap, or maybe just swap the trans mission all together...idk yet, its a hard choice...lol

I did notice I accelerate faster in 1st and 2nd gears in my 96 beretta when I put my shifter in L instead of Drive
I've used that to get 2nd gear on the freeway when going about 65 in order to get up to just under 80 pretty fast because it won't down shift past 3rd gear after a certain speed.

idk, I'd put a turbo, but I can not seem to find any bolt together universal manifold kits for the exhaust and intake manifolds (that don't require welding)...lol
I do not have a welder, my friend does, but I'm thinking the manifold welds being only steel without stainless would rust fast...

Plus I am not sure if I can safely go past 5 PSI boost on a turbo without breaking the block, heads, or pistons...
Unless someone knows where I can buy a good set of pistons for this engine? and a bolt together universal manifold kit?

Once I get all my ideas and selections/options straightened out, I'm going to start assembling things, but that will be after some time of double checking...

idk I think I'm done, the transmissions seem too close to be worth the swap after thinking about it for a while, unless there is something that the 3 speed trans auto has over the 4 speed trans auto that makes it better...

[beretta]

once you get past 60 mph or so it wont down shift to 2nd, but you can manually pull it down and do 90 mph in 2nd gear, if you pull it to 1st it automatically goes into 2nd..

I would really love to have the money to gut a snap on code scanner and use parts in it to make your trany shift when you want with the push of a button LOL..
I borrowed my friends scanner many times, i found it has a function to test transmission, you can manually select what gear to go into. you can make it stay in 1st gear for ever and only shift when you push the button, or you can make it go into 4th gear and stay in 4th even at a complete stop it over rides the ECM and makes it shift manual.. i thought it would be pretty sweet to inter-grade that and have up shift and down shift buttons on the steering wheel.. the scanner is like $1,000 bucks i think, it takes cartriges for different makes and models it works with practically any vehicle.. maybe there is a cheaper version that has the same functions.

Turbo is not that big of a deal.. you probably could safely boost 15 psi and not hurt the bottom end, our engines are strong.
Ive thought about this alot.. and i actually had bought a 3.1 factory turbo for my 88 with a deposit and never followed through with getting it because it was 20 hours away and across the border for me. basically you just need a rear manifold and the cross over pipe, you could easily block off the exhaust outlet on the rear manifold and put a flange on your cross over pipe and weld some stuff up and bolt the turbo on, you need to run different injectors and have the ability or someone that does to tune it.
Ive looked into this alot, and i think 8-10 psi would be more then sufficient for boost, i seen a stock 3400 bottom end i think they done some custom porting on the heads and intake and boosted 9 psi it was 358 hp at the wheels in a grand am or grand prick i seen on youtube shown on the dyno..

if it wasnt for the fact my gf drives the 96 i would 5 speed swap it.. but im stuck with auto in it and its not that bad, i find it nice to drive, i have a 88 5 speed too.

Lots of people have changed out the final drive gears... the 4 speed in our car is the same trany in many others and i think i read somewhere there is 12 different final drive gear ratios for the various other vehicles. i dont know what one is better then the other but i can tell you i have drove my gf's 99 lumina with the same trans and stock 3100 it would probably smoke my 96 off the line and its a bigger car, around here people sell those cars for 500-1,000 bucks and you could pull the trans and get your money back just in scrap. if i wanted a trany swap but keep it auto i would look for one of those tranys. pretty sure they all have the same gears.. just the final drive is different, and the 99 lumina has a larger stall then the beretta. i think the beretta is 1800 stall or something and the lumina is 2200 or something.

i dont really know what im talking about LOL, im no pro at trany's i know if i was to change mine out though id be swapping in one from a lumina or similar car.

[3X00-Modified]

I will post the info your asking for tomorrow, I don't have it on my phone, but going from a 4 speed to a 3 speed is a downgrade period so in my opinion a complete waste of time.

[zBusterCB87]

Yah I kinda figured its a wast of time, unless the gears rev higher and then I can just try and swap them...

Thats what I do, I put my shifter in L when I'm over 60 or whatever it is to make it shift to second, and because of how L works, it locks up the torque converter constantly and pretends its a stick shift car...lol

I actually thought of making a type of paddle shifting for my transmissions, because it is all electronic shift, and electronic torque converter.

I'm pretty good with micro controllers and can make it.
The only thing that is keeping me from doing this is the risk of breaking my transmission, I don't want to accidentally slam a gear.

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You know those twin seat arcade racing games at places like lazerquest?
You know how they have that pretend shifter 1-5 that is electronic sensors for the game?

I thought of buying something like that, but nicer looking, and then using that to shift my transmission electronically, then running the signal to a 40 pin PIC18F4525 and then sending the PIC output to a set of transistors TIP147 or TIP142 and then sending that output to the transmission solenoids.

If I can make it go out of any gear, and then go into another gear, for example:
I take off in 1st, I move my lever to 3rd, and the transmission skips 2nd gear and goes directly to 3rd.

But I do not know if the Auto transmission I have has to go through gears in a linear patters, 1-2-3-4 and 4-3-2-1.
I means I do not know if I want to go from 1st gear to 3rd gear, does it HeVE to go through 2nd mechanically, even if the electronic signals say to go directly to 3rd...??

I'm not sure how you would tell it to go to neutral,
Isn't the transmission have an engagement gear/shaft? and then the other 1-2-3-4 gears shift seperate?

Or does the transmission always have to be in a gear when it is in drive?

Also another thing I do not understand is if you put it in drive, or neutral, the mechanical lever, that also directs fluid mechanically?

So our transmissions do have a type of fluid drive still

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Basically that is what is keeping me from trying any of that out.
If I knew that my P-R-N-OD-D-L selector was ONLY electronic, I'd do this, but because it physically turns internals, I'm scard I might break it if I try like above, electronically shift between gears 1, 2, 3, 4, R.


ADD: Also, if I did that all above, I'd make it so that the torque converter engages every time the gas peddle is floor-boarded, to allow for the fastest and most direct acceleration, and best gas mielage.
I can make an electronic clutch switch in the floor...lol And a secondary switch to disable it.
And the system would only work if the car was on.

Also: if you really want a manual transmission, tell your girlfriend to learn how to drive a stick...lol
But I'm guessing that might not be a good aftermath...lol

[zBusterCB87]

If you want, I can try to work with you over the PM if you/I/we want to try to make our own type of electronic shifting for the transmission...

In the end what you do to your car and what I do to my car are our own will and the other wont be responsible (protects you and I both from each others wrath...lol).

I can try to explain what I do to my car as best I can, or what I would do, I have the shop manuals, I can start looking over spring break here at the university.
Would be an interesting project to try out, I can probably make it with a switch bank to revert between the manual electronic shift and the auto electronic shift.

If I find that I am limited by the P-R-N-OD-D-L shifter, I can make an electronic shifting option for drive only... and it only works in OD if it is turned on with a push button. But as soon as the cars taken out of OD in any way, I can make it auto disable.
I can also have an off push button, and an emergency off switch bank under the dash to instantly revert back to the computers auto shift control.

But the hardest thing would be testing if you want to skip gears, if it can mechanically do it or not, or if it is forced to go through a gear to get to the next.
And if it can pop out of any gear and stay in a "neutral" state or not, I still have not figured the use of this part yet.
I was thinking of a mount on electronic video game shifter that looks good and is made decently for the 1-4 manual control, and that does not pop out of its selection unless you apply enough force with your hand to move it, to prevent accidents.

And a push button built into something, maybe for your left foot, to control the torque converter, push to disable, release to enable, toggle switch to enable this option.

what is your thoughts?

I'm assuming 4 wires for gears 1-2-3-4, 1 wire for torque converter, 1 wire for neutral control while in drive, anything else not yet found goes here...

EDIT: I just realized, this would work without a micro controller, just using a switching system, and a good driver who knows how to drive the car.
Set RPM, then set gear, then set torque converter with the push button/toggle.

[3X00-Modified]

My wife bought me a 5-speed since she already had one...

There was someone who made a paddle shift before but yes our transmissions have a fluid diverter valve which is what controls the torque converter lock feel your talking about in the L gear...

I don't know what you are intending on doing with this setup but I don't think making this trans into a paddle shift will work well at all, but thats just my opinion. As far as skipping gears yes that is possible, the trans is setup to engage certain clutch packs when a gear is selected so if you tell it to engage solenoid A B and C to get third and then want 2 you would drop it back to what ever solenoids control 2nd gear, it already does that when you go from part throttle in 4th to WOT it will drop it down to 2nd gear. The hard part would be you setting up another paddle to skip shift and one to direct shift down as well. I honestly think its too much trouble though for very little gain.

I attached a PDF that shows the avilable differentials and drive/driven gear ratios that can be used on a 4t60e and a 3t40. There are two ways to change the ratios, we already have the highest ratio diff in our cars we just need to change the drive and driven gears in the trans to get a better ratio, Its overdriven now at .89:1 and you can go to 1:1 or 1.12:1

Oh and BTW... PCS already has this setup...

http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.c ... ontrol.php

http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.c ... hifter.php

[zBusterCB87]

Thanks for the links and info...
I did not think it would be in combination like that...
I thought that each gear was activated by a solenoid, then that was it...
I also thought the gears were on a linear setup, one moved out of the way to make room for the next, and such.

Now I know they are seperate and can be controlled I will atempt to make a manual controller for them!

I just though of an easier way to do this, a 5 bank push button selector like with those old fans, you push a button, it stays down, then you push another button and that new button stays down, but the first selected button pops up. (Not sure if I said.that right).

Its not a practical project, but it would be a fun project
The only real practicality is that I can keep my car in 4th gear and locked up on the freeway, better gas milage, it keeps disengaging because its so sensative...lol
Once I get another car to use, then I can start modifications!

[3X00-Modified]

Thats what you need to learn about an auto, no gears move... you have clutch packs that change how fast things are turning due to their sizes. You have the drive and driven sprockets in the trans which is like a bike chain connecting the engine to the trans internals, that can be changed in ratios as noted above .89, 1 or 1.12... And then you also have three ratios to pick for a differential, but then internal there are still three gears in both that have different ratios and then the 4th gear in the 4t60e that has the highest .705 ratio. Thats why I have multiple tables, I put in the possible first second and third gear final ratio with all of those variables accounted for... so you can see what effective final drive ratio you will have with each combo. Mine is the 1.12:1 with the 3.29 diff under the 95+ section. I have the highest possible ratios you can get in a 96, a 94 you can get ever so slightly higher since they used the same 3.33 ratio diff like the 3t40, but other internal parts are not as robust and strong as in the 96.

And honestly you won't get better mileage always locked up... It's amazing how much your MPG drops when you are running at low RPM heavy load... I can see it on my heads up display on my subaru when in 5th gear and low RPM... When thats the situation I'll shift to 4th and turn more RPM's but get higher MPG. Yes strange I know.

BUT to answer your original question... the 4t60e has a higher first gear ratio so you should have better take off than a 3t40.

Attaching some pdf's to show RPM vs MPH in each gear for every combo for the 3t40 and 95+ 4t60

[zBusterCB87]

nice, thanks for all of those!
I'm going to keep this book marked and download them so I don't loose them! lol

Who knows, maybe I can make a good transmission modification.
Time will tell!